turelhim vampire Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I was reading Legion a while back and during the section when John Grammaticus sizes up the "real" Alpharius he mentions him as having "a hint of Cyrenian" (or words to that effect) in his accent. Now I know Alpharius is just good a mimicing accents, but John Grammaticus is supposed to be without peer in recognising accents and inflections in peoples voices. Couple this with the fact that no one really knows about Omegon, and we have another theory on the origins of the Blood Ravens. What is to say that Omegon (or Alpharius, depending on which one did which) could not have gone "undercover" with some of the Alpha Legion and remained loyal to the imperium in the conventional sense? Considering that Cyrene was one of the Blood Ravens recruiting worlds, and that they have no clue who their Primarch is (Omegon, perhaps?) could this not be another possibility? I know the Thousand Sons theory is everyones favourite, but I just wanted to see if anyone else found this interesting. Has this been considered before, or am I the first to notice this? (I doubt that, considering how on the ball a lot of the B&C are) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 You have a point, I never thought of it that way. Actually, I'd say most of us wouldn't, as the theory to do with the TS is pretty widely accepted, thanks to C.S. Goto. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1892103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother natar Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I have heard the Alpha Legion Blood Raven thing before, but it was just someone trying to think of a reason to link two random Chapters/legions togeather. This makes a lot of sense the way you say it, however... could you possibly find a quote from the book about Grammaticus saying that about Alpharius, so i don't have to read the whole thing again? What is to say that Omegon (or Alpharius, depending on which one did which) could not have gone "undercover" with some of the Alpha Legion and remained loyal to the imperium in the conventional sense? Considering that Cyrene was one of the Blood Ravens recruiting worlds, and that they have no clue who their Primarch is (Omegon, perhaps?) could this not be another possibility? This would make sense, and is also a reason for there to be more than one Primarch, as before there really was no reason. One is fighting directly for the Emperor and the Inquisition, while the other is fighting for the human race... it would be hard for the one who became the Blood Raven master to do so without being found out, as i'm pretty sure the Imperium keep pretty strainous records about Chapters and what not. You have a point, I never thought of it that way. Actually, I'd say most of us wouldn't, as the theory to do with the TS is pretty widely accepted, thanks to C.S. Goto. First of all, terrible series of books. Seriously, they make the Soul Drinkers seem almost good. Anyway, that's slightly off topic. You could link in the whole welcoming in of that Blood Bavens librarian as a brother thing by saying the Thousand Sons recognised the Blood Ravens as Alpha Legion... a traitorous Legion, and so the Thousand Sons (also traitor) saw them as sort of brothers in arms against the Imperium, not knowing the Blood Ravens don't know how they were formed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1892314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Alpharius he mentions him as having "a hint of Cyrenian" (or words to that effect) in his accent. It should be born in mind that he doesnt say there is a definate hint of Cyrenian, only that there might have been: 'Alpharius' was speaking in common Low Gothic, with a rising spur on the middle syllables of Alpharius and Emperor that hinted at a Gedrosian or Cyrenaican basal slant. Addendum: in fact, etymologically speaking a Cyrenaican would be someone from Cyrenaica not Cyrene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1892417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Cyrene is also a place on Earth... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1892467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Nice speculation :) There is a follow-up Book to "Legion" being released as part of the HH series soon. Explaining the significane of the revelation of Omegon. It is similar to the way "Fallen Angels" is the follow-up to "Descent of Angels." Cant wait :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1892631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakiwis Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 One can never be really sure with the Alpha Legion but for the Blodd Ravens to become a chapter and be in it in that scale, I think it's very unlikeley since it would have to take the High Lords of Terra to sanction a creation of the Chapter. Also, they way the Blood Angels fight (from a fortified postion leaving it and going against orks- from the short film or something from DOW) is definitely not something a marine from the Alpha Legion would do :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1899194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 To me, the Blood Ravens=Thousand Sons tie-in has never been about the books (didn't read them until recently) but it's stated that the Ravens has an unusual amount of psykers. That's where I got the conclusion from. As far as the Blood Ravens=Alpha Legion theory goes, while it does make sense, and if I'm not mistaken a similar thing was done by a Japanese samurai family during the Meiji Revolution (can't remember the family name, have to look it up), as Jakiwis said thier tactics are too different. Good theory though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1917984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 *Spreads hands* It seems like something the Alpharious twins would do. I could see it happening. As for needing a high lords permission... if entire worlds can slip throught he cracks, if chapters can be "lost" for a few centuries at a time, then putting the right documents in the right places to be discovered showing that such and such a chapter was founded lawfully and then "lost" again wouldnt be that hard. Especially by someone who had a few thousand years to go about it at their leisure and the abilities of a primarch to back it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1917989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader12 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I think that Grey Mage brings up a good point. Also, if you go back to the fluff in codex space marines (I think thats it) it says that most chapters cannot place a date exactly when they were founded. This is due to the fact that most were founded during times of strife (such as the age of apostasy) so tons of records were lost. Again, someone with the skill of Alpahrius/Omegon could relativly easily place a document regarding the founding of the blood ravens that suggests that they were founded sometime after the heresy or into M32, who would question it? They are a "loyal" chapter with a high number of psykers due to the many worlds they recruit from. Thats a very good thought. Also, somewhat unrelated, I remember reading somewhere that when the Alpha Legion turned, Alpharius/Omegon said (might be misquoted) 'This I shall do, for the Emperor." Now, this could either mean that they were really remaining loyal to the Emperor or it could be symbolizing the creation of their battlecry "For the Emperor!" which they use to confuse people. This brings up the point that perhaps they truely mean what they say. -crusader Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1918383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 You expect Alpharius to be using his genuine accent? Grammaticus may be good, but he's still a step behind, after all he failed to pick up on Omegon's existence. I expect the Cyrenian accent is in effect his "genuine" false identity, the one he has spent most time perfecting, and is his Plan B to fall back on should his 'second covering' false identity (or even third) be blown. Essentially Grammaticus can see past Alpharius' false identity. Alpharius knows there are people who can do this, even if he does not know who they are. When Grammaticus (or the Eldar Autarch)reveals that he can see past the false identity, Alpharius concedes and falls back on his "genuine identity". However, this "genuine identity" is just another false identity, even better than the first. Layers upon layers of deception. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1918674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezef Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I don't think Alpharius could hide his true accent from Grammaticus. Alpharius may be good, but Grammaticus is a psyker powerful enough to almost see what the Emperor himself was trying to hide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1918741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Alpharius may be good, but Grammaticus is a psyker powerful enough to almost see what the Emperor himself was trying to hide. Grammaticus couldn't detect Omegon. The Eldar could. Alpharius managed to hide that from Grammaticus, why couldn't he keep something as simple as his accent hidden? Plus, certain languages require you to acquire the accent for correct pronunciation. I may be English, but I can't speak fluent Spanish with an English accent - it just completely mangles it. I have to pronounce how the Spanish pronounce, hence acquiring a Spanish 'accent'. Alpharius isn't talking in his native language (the language of his homeworld), he's speaking High Gothic. Therefore, if he is completely fluent, he is speaking in whatever accent High Gothic requires. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1918820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 It's a nice Theory and it does seem that far to many people accept the TS theory too much. But there are things that don't make sense. Firstly when Alpharius/Omegon was killed by Guilleman it is most likely that the other remained in command (Hence why the Alpha Legion was able to operate so efficiently with just losing there Primarch, where others haven't). 2nd Someone already worked out there could be a hint of Cyrene in his voice, he is a very secretive Primarch who has more in common with spies, he's very unlikely to go back to a place where someone has already worked out he could've been there (others may have done aswell). Finally the Blood Ravens have a surprisingly large number of psykers which is rare with chapters, even rarer when you recruit from several planet's (making the most likely cause to be the Geneseed) and there is only 1 Geneseed (unless more info is written on the lost legions) that does this to Astartes which brings us back to TS. But still good theory and i prefer it to the TS one already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1919222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 How dare you! Omegon couldn't have founded an honorable chapter like the Blood Ravens! Their nobles feats and endless service to the God Emperor speak of a greater lineage than of that sniveling Alpha Legion cur! I won't hear of such a slur against the Emperor's finest! It's just not possible... ...everybody knows Omegon actually led the Ultramarines, and continues to do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1919245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezef Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Alpharius may be good, but Grammaticus is a psyker powerful enough to almost see what the Emperor himself was trying to hide. Grammaticus couldn't detect Omegon. The Eldar could. Alpharius managed to hide that from Grammaticus, why couldn't he keep something as simple as his accent hidden? Plus, certain languages require you to acquire the accent for correct pronunciation. I may be English, but I can't speak fluent Spanish with an English accent - it just completely mangles it. I have to pronounce how the Spanish pronounce, hence acquiring a Spanish 'accent'. Alpharius isn't talking in his native language (the language of his homeworld), he's speaking High Gothic. Therefore, if he is completely fluent, he is speaking in whatever accent High Gothic requires. Are we even sure Alpharius was trying to hide his accent? I guess we can agree to disagree, because I think there is no way Alpherius can hide something as "simple" as his accent from Grammaticus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1919301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Are we even sure Alpharius was trying to hide his accent? I guess we can agree to disagree, because I think there is no way Alpherius can hide something as "simple" as his accent from Grammaticus. He's Alpha Legion. They're like Daemons, you can always trust them to lie. Though maybe he's mixing bits of the truth in there to confuse us even further . . . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1919427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Are we even sure Alpharius was trying to hide his accent? I guess we can agree to disagree, because I think there is no way Alpherius can hide something as "simple" as his accent from Grammaticus. He's Alpha Legion. They're like Daemons, you can always trust them to lie. Though maybe he's mixing bits of the truth in there to confuse us even further . . . The greatest lie has elements of truth in it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1920821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Some of the best lies are truths. Wrap your head around that :D . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1924958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Wizards first rule- People believe want they want to be or what they fear to be. Given this you can feed them almost anything and most people will find some way to frame it in their psyche. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1924988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 2nd Someone already worked out there could be a hint of Cyrene in his voice, he is a very secretive Primarch who has more in common with spies, he's very unlikely to go back to a place where someone has already worked out he could've been there (others may have done aswell). Finally the Blood Ravens have a surprisingly large number of psykers which is rare with chapters, even rarer when you recruit from several planet's (making the most likely cause to be the Geneseed) and there is only 1 Geneseed (unless more info is written on the lost legions) that does this to Astartes which brings us back to TS. But still good theory and i prefer it to the TS one already. he /they would not have to go to the planet themselves. they could use other legionares wearing different armour or use oppritves in various arms of the imperium. they are psykers before they are implanted with gene seed. it is detected when they are brought before the librarians before any zygotes are implanted. and they would not necicarily use their own geneseed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1926506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 2nd Someone already worked out there could be a hint of Cyrene in his voice, he is a very secretive Primarch who has more in common with spies, he's very unlikely to go back to a place where someone has already worked out he could've been there (others may have done aswell). Finally the Blood Ravens have a surprisingly large number of psykers which is rare with chapters, even rarer when you recruit from several planet's (making the most likely cause to be the Geneseed) and there is only 1 Geneseed (unless more info is written on the lost legions) that does this to Astartes which brings us back to TS. But still good theory and i prefer it to the TS one already. he /they would not have to go to the planet themselves. they could use other legionares wearing different armour or use oppritves in various arms of the imperium. they are psykers before they are implanted with gene seed. it is detected when they are brought before the librarians before any zygotes are implanted. and they would not necicarily use their own geneseed. That brings up a good point. If they were Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons, and they were stupid enough to use thier own geneseed, wouldn't Terra know about it? I can imagine the newly made Inquisition would be pounding on thier door in a heartbeat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1932970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 While I wouldn't doubt the alpha legion building a "loyalist" chapter, I think it is pure speculation at this point, the Thousand Sons link still makes more sense, but that is also circumstantial. All in all I like the TS ideas a bit better. I would love to see a chapter of loyalist night lords, now that would be cool... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161164-legion-questions/#findComment-1934775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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