Codex CSM Mysteries

[Lothar_Bubonicus]

After re-reading the C:CSM I have spotted a couple of mysteries and I would love it if someone could come up with a plausable reason why for the mystery or do I put it down to the lazy designers at GW.

 

Khârn's flamer.

At the incident where Khârn earned his betrayer moniker he grabbed a flammer and tourched the shelters. Bezerker's don't get flamers did he grab one from the body or an Emperor's Children marine or what?

 

Apothacries

What happened to them since the Heresy? The only one who seems to be keeping busy is Fabius. Did they all die or are they to important to risk their lives?

 

Multi Meltas

Where they all abandoned at the Heresy or are they post Heresy tech? How can dread's and obliterators still have them?

 

Dark Mechanacus

What have they been doing since the end of the Heresy? Or can they only invent two fliers and one walker? Or are they only capable of copying STC designs?

 

Anymore?

[Peakey]

Yeah, and........

 

In the Horus heresy books there are,assault cannons,storm bolters and librarians.

 

Where did they go?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

1 ;)

2 busy making more CSMs

3 maybe they didn't have man-portable?

4 making vehicles chaos-y (spikes for the spike god!).

[Zealot Of Chaos]

After re-reading the C:CSM I have spotted a couple of mysteries and I would love it if someone could come up with a plausable reason why for the mystery or do I put it down to the lazy designers at GW.

 

Khârn's flamer.

At the incident where Khârn earned his betrayer moniker he grabbed a flammer and tourched the shelters. Bezerker's don't get flamers did he grab one from the body or an Emperor's Children marine or what?

 

Apothacries

What happened to them since the Heresy? The only one who seems to be keeping busy is Fabius. Did they all die or are they to important to risk their lives?

 

Multi Meltas

Where they all abandoned at the Heresy or are they post Heresy tech? How can dread's and obliterators still have them?

 

Dark Mechanacus

What have they been doing since the end of the Heresy? Or can they only invent two fliers and one walker? Or are they only capable of copying STC designs?

 

Anymore?

 

Khârn's Flamer... EC don't get flamers either, I reckon that Zerks used to get them then after Khârn's cooking lessons they destroyed them

Apothies I'm guessing are staying well away from the front lines as they are too valuable

Multi Meltas I think they were post heresy (but I'll probably get corrected on that) and dreads can use them because you have to give our dread something, and oblits because they litterally fuse and reshape their bodies to make one

Dark M well if the forgeworlds can only copy STC designs except for swapping a weapon here or there on Land Raiders then the Dark Mech is ahead by inventing a brand new template rather than copy pasting

[Legatus]

In the Horus heresy books there are,assault cannons,storm bolters and librarians.

The Horus heresy books are incorrect about assault cannons and stormbolters. There were librarians though.

 

Khârn's Flamer... EC don't get flamers either

They did in the last few rules incarnations I can remember. EC's were not completely made of Noise Marines in the Index Astartes rules or the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines.

[Epic Thoughts]

I don't have an answer for Khârn's flamer, but, if you wish to use the current codex as an example (and like Legatus pointed out), not all cult armies are completely composed of cult troops. Just because someone is in The World Eater's doesn't mean they're all lobotomized loons.

 

In regards to apothecaries, we see what's happened to them through Bile, who's gone mad trying to create Warp knows what with this or that experiment. Also, the gruesome look at Chaos 'recruitment' given to us by McNiell in 'Dead Sun, White Sky' shows that creation for new Chaos Marines is far from pleasant or easy. Zealot and Iron Chaos Brute pretty much hit that one on the head. Also, from the same book, we get a look at The Dark Mechanicus. These boys aren't doing nothing. They're busy, and that's pretty much bad news for everyone else in the galaxy.

 

Although, I do find the strange disparities between what we've seen presented as 'Chaos' Mechanicus in numerous sources, and the 'Anti'-Mechanicus we get when we discuss the C'tan/Void Dragon Theory in regards to The Priest Hood of Mars. Are these factions joined, and truly one, or, is the Mechanicum really screwed up? Of course, the terms 'Chaos Mechanicus' and 'Anti Mechanicus' are completely my own, and are only in my head. I could simply be perceiving differences where none exist.

 

Multimeltas are in Chaos forces, but, like plasma cannons, are not man portable. We see this with our dreadnaughts. They can have these weapons, but they don't appear in our heavy support infantry. The rational behind this being that the man portable versions were developed after The Heresy. This also fits in with the comment about Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons. These discoveries/developments have occured much later than The Heresy. You have to be careful when you're reading the various novels, as their fluff can contradict other fluff, and GW seems to have no interest in solving this juxtapositions. You have to decide for yourself how your vision of 40k works out.

[the jeske]

Just because someone is in The World Eater's doesn't mean they're all lobotomized loons.

well actually they all are . not all zerkers are crazy [well at least not more crazy then any other khorn cult worshiper] , but all WE underwent the implantation .

[Epic Thoughts]

You are correct, Jeske. I should have worded my statement more along the lines of which you have. Just because they underwent the lobotomization doesn't mean they're all insane. Thank you.

[darth_giles]

I don't have an answer for Khârn's flamer, but, if you wish to use the current codex as an example (and like Legatus pointed out), not all cult armies are completely composed of cult troops. Just because someone is in The World Eater's doesn't mean they're all lobotomized loons.

Even as late as 3.5 fluff, 100% of all cult legions were cult troops. That was a very recent change, like the Undivided legions being able to take cult troops again.

In regards to apothecaries, we see what's happened to them through Bile, who's gone mad trying to create Warp knows what with this or that experiment. Also, the gruesome look at Chaos 'recruitment' given to us by McNiell in 'Dead Sun, White Sky' shows that creation for new Chaos Marines is far from pleasant or easy. Zealot and Iron Chaos Brute pretty much hit that one on the head. Also, from the same book, we get a look at The Dark Mechanicus. These boys aren't doing nothing. They're busy, and that's pretty much bad news for everyone else in the galaxy.

According to 3.0 fluff, there were no new CSMs. And according to 3.5 fluff, the only source of new CSMs was Fabius Bile, whenever he could be bothered to make something other than those stupid Enhanced Warriors of his.

Multimeltas are in Chaos forces, but, like plasma cannons, are not man portable. We see this with our dreadnaughts. They can have these weapons, but they don't appear in our heavy support infantry. The rational behind this being that the man portable versions were developed after The Heresy. This also fits in with the comment about Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons. These discoveries/developments have occured much later than The Heresy. You have to be careful when you're reading the various novels, as their fluff can contradict other fluff, and GW seems to have no interest in solving this juxtapositions. You have to decide for yourself how your vision of 40k works out.

So what about the Talon of Horus having "an early version of the Imperial Storm Bolter" in 3.0- as per Abbadon's fluff, and the storm bolters on the 3.0 Chaos Rhinos? They were suddenly changed to twin bolters in 3.5, with no explanation.

[Roultox]

The sacred 'knowledge' of apothecaries are no longer sacred, and its become common knowledge.

 

Multi-meltas and autocannons heavily produced for the marines were part of both sides of the mechanicus, and they split hard which also split the convenience of obtaining such weapons.

 

Dark mechanicus? Well lets see.

 

Obliterators, Defilers, producing weapons and restoring titans. Building ships for each black crusade. Maintaining bonds with hundreds of warbands and 9 former legions by trading weapons for stock and lost tech. They seem pretty busy, the fact they lack a proper army of their own is why we dont see them mentioned often.

 

 

Kharns flamer (rogue trader days, when zerks got bolters, I own a few of those models), when they were more like death guard then the zerks you see today. When he split the legion up they all took the essential weapons and as time passed on and teaching was a matter of life and death struggles rather then rank and file training excersizes. You tend to lose the finesse of special weapons that differ too much from what you normally use when fighting for power. Pistols and Chain weapons are the weapons of choice now.

[apaosha]

The sacred 'knowledge' of apothecaries are no longer sacred, and its become common knowledge.

 

Multi-meltas and autocannons heavily produced for the marines were part of both sides of the mechanicus, and they split hard which also split the convenience of obtaining such weapons.

 

Dark mechanicus? Well lets see.

 

Obliterators, Defilers, producing weapons and restoring titans. Building ships for each black crusade. Maintaining bonds with hundreds of warbands and 9 former legions by trading weapons for stock and lost tech. They seem pretty busy, the fact they lack a proper army of their own is why we dont see them mentioned often.

 

You made that all up.

 

Fact is, background contradictions exist; no one cares enough to correct them.

 

Inference like the above is what results ....

[darth_giles]

Kharns flamer (rogue trader days, when zerks got bolters, I own a few of those models), when they were more like death guard then the zerks you see today. When he split the legion up they all took the essential weapons and as time passed on and teaching was a matter of life and death struggles rather then rank and file training excersizes. You tend to lose the finesse of special weapons that differ too much from what you normally use when fighting for power. Pistols and Chain weapons are the weapons of choice now.

Which is one of the few things I like about the new CSMs- you can now make a Khornate list that doesn't reflect that. Just because Khârn is Khorne's spastic retard and tried to replace their organization with a bunch of frothing madmen slaughtering each other for dominance, doesn't mean they all *had* to do it.

 

That's only the excuse people use to knock you on theme when you aren't rushing for their Lightning Claw Terminator Honor Guard just because its the closest unit on the table.

[CelestialSon]

Only in the last chaos codex did it ever infer that all of the World Eaters were bezerkers. It's been part of their fluff that most of them are, but remember that before the Horus Heresy, there was no such thing as bezerkers. Khârn is largeley responsible for the breakdown of the World Eaters as a legion, so who knows what they were like before that. What the chaos legions are today is not even close to what they are now. In fact, current fluff makes it seem like it's not really fair to even call them legions anymore.

 

More importantly, Khârn could have gotten a flamer from anywhere. I think your taking the codex's structure as canon. This little bit has been around since codex:chaos 2nd ed.

[darth_giles]

Only in the last chaos codex did it ever infer that all of the World Eaters were bezerkers. It's been part of their fluff that most of them are, but remember that before the Horus Heresy, there was no such thing as bezerkers.

Wasn't that also stated directly in the IA article?

[Peakey]

In the Horus heresy books there are,assault cannons,storm bolters and librarians.

The Horus heresy books are incorrect about assault cannons and stormbolters. There were librarians though.

 

 

So why did the Emperor get all moody about the Thousand sons? :D

[Captain Tezdal]

wasnt there a mention of a WE apothecary in one of those collected short stories books by the black library?

[Razrhaghul]

eh, i'd imagine being an apothecary would be rather difficult, what with the rampant warp-mutations and all

 

"what's wrong with you, today"?

"my tentacle is itchy and i'm out of cream"

"hmm, that looks infected, might see some scales come in...oh, no spines, i'm sorry"

[Roultox]

The sacred 'knowledge' of apothecaries are no longer sacred, and its become common knowledge.

 

Multi-meltas and autocannons heavily produced for the marines were part of both sides of the mechanicus, and they split hard which also split the convenience of obtaining such weapons.

 

Dark mechanicus? Well lets see.

 

Obliterators, Defilers, producing weapons and restoring titans. Building ships for each black crusade. Maintaining bonds with hundreds of warbands and 9 former legions by trading weapons for stock and lost tech. They seem pretty busy, the fact they lack a proper army of their own is why we dont see them mentioned often.

 

You made that all up.

 

Fact is, background contradictions exist; no one cares enough to correct them.

 

Inference like the above is what results ....

 

Common sense to fill in the blanks of whats hinted at as a side effect of events of fluff is not making it up, its calculated guessing. ;)

 

"Why are there lots of meltas but no multimeltas or inferno pistols for chaos armies?"

"Why are all the weapons that were availible to most everyone of the Imperial Army now thunnelled differently to each different orginisation?"

"Obliterators are a cult of what exactly, and even though abbadon brought the defiler in who makes the defilers? - and where do all their new ships they lose in dark crusades come from?"

 

Its the right questions at different angles that can get answers. :D

-When fluff dictates otherwise, I will stand corrected. - Or until someone gets better answers. :P

[darth_giles]

So why did the Emperor get all moody about the Thousand sons? :confused:

Because the Legions had been encountering chaos sorcerers, and there wasn't much difference in most of the Primarchs' eyes between an Imperial sorcerer and a Chaos sorcerer. Particularly Leman Russ, who is described in the Thousand Sons IA article as little better than a frothing madman.

 

Perhaps the influence of Khorne reached farther than anyone was willing to admit? ;)

[Magnus Thane]

The weapon/unit differences more often than not come down to:

Let's keep some differences between SM's and CSM's!

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

The weapon/unit difference more often are not come down to:

Let's keep some differences between SM's and CSM's!

 

QFT.

[MuGGzy]

As a rabid Black Library novel reader I will answer from what I have gathered...

 

Khârn's flamer.

At the incident where Khârn earned his betrayer moniker he grabbed a flammer and tourched the shelters. Bezerker's don't get flamers did he grab one from the body or an Emperor's Children marine or what?

 

In the books there is A LOT of random "weapon picking up", if you run out of clips you pick up whatever the closest weapon is on the ground. Hell in the WB novels the guy rips an arm off a Grotesque and uses that as an axe/sword to great effect.

 

Apothacries

What happened to them since the Heresy? The only one who seems to be keeping busy is Fabius. Did they all die or are they to important to risk their lives?

Just no reason for them in game terms for us. However any traitors still alive that know about medicine are still around, just not classified as "Apothecaries". In Storm of Iron they were after a stock of generic SM geneseed so they obviously had someone that would be able to put it to use.

 

Multi Meltas

Where they all abandoned at the Heresy or are they post Heresy tech? How can dread's and obliterators still have them?

These are omitted simply for game balance/rules reasons. Obviously CSM would have EVERYTHING loyalist SM have but in lesser quantities. They have slaves that scavenge the battlegrounds and salvage anything usable, hence CSM with mismatched bits of armor etc.. But if they gave CSM "Looted" stuff so we could use everything that IG and SM can use, well we would be borken for real. :D

 

 

Dark Mechanacus

What have they been doing since the end of the Heresy? Or can they only invent two fliers and one walker? Or are they only capable of copying STC designs?

I think this stuff is just another case of "we got enough to worry about with things that actually exist IN GAME already, so we aren't going to invent ANOTHER army to represent this stuff".

There are still many Dark Mech priests around and more getting captured all the time and perverted/possesed to chaos.

To some extent they are like sorcerers, they are a necc nusance to keep stuff running but any self respecting CSM would rather have a demonic claw or wings than a shiny new type of melee weapon or jetpack and the DM are still just as stupidly religious about tech as ever I am sure so they won't use anything that isn't "blessed" or whatever.

[Otniel]

I have to go with Iron_Chaos_Brute on this one: SPIKES FOR THE SPIKE GOD!! :cuss

[satanaka]

To clarify, Oblits are the corrupted Techmarines of the former legions.

[Zeller]

Was it so cold out that power armor couldn't keep the marines a nice compfy temperature inside their armor? What were they on a planet where the average temperature was absolute zero or something?