Shooting from cover

[Luigiman59]

Okay, let's say you have a squad of Marines mounted behind a small wall, there bolters and eyes are above the wall, but they are mostly covered by the wall, now if an enemy unit nearby shoots some plasma or lascannons, or starcannons or some other type of low AP Weaponry at my Marines, they would obviously get a Cover save.

 

Here's my concern, when the Marines fire there bolters back at the enemy, does the enemy get a cover save?

 

according to the true line of site rules, there is nothing in the way between my marines eyes/guns and the enemy, so shouldn't the enemy get the full force of the bolters?

 

i've often seen people saying "if it gets your unit a cover save from my shooting, you shooting from it gives my units a cover save as well" now that seems more fair, but it doesn't make much sense to me. the advantage of using cover is to keep your units safer, while still being able to fire at maximum killiness at the enemy

 

i mean IRL troops shooting from a building sure as hell doesn't give the enemies any benefit of cover.

 

how do you guys usually deal with this problem?

[Gaz1858]

I play that the target has to be obscured by the cover. In your situation the enemy are in open ground therefor no cover save

[Rogue]

Am I imagining a rule to the effect that models within 1" of cover (as in, behind a wall like your guys) ignore it for the purposes of firing over it?

 

Playing true LoS, the 'If it covers you, it covers me' doesn't hold up anyway. If I hide behind a door and peer through the key hole, I can see you clearly in the middle of the room, but you can't see me. Likewise, the marine can clearly see over the wall, but is near enough for it not to block sightlines.

 

(Not that common-sense, real-world examples are always the same as the rules...) ;)

[schuurthing]

In the rules somewhere as I read it, there's a rule that you can shoot through 2" of cover. Some clarification from someone less newbie than I would be nice.

[Cedric]

You'll want to read p.22 of the BRB.

 

Firing over a barrier: Models that are in base

contact with a linear piece of terrain they can see

over, such as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a

fence, can fire at enemies on the other side without

the barrier getting in the way of their shots.

[Steelmage99]

It seems pretty simple. Replace the gretchin with a wall, if it helps.

 

Ork gets coversave.

http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/99925785.jpg

 

Marine does not get a coversave.

http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/99925784.jpg

 

Those are the rules.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

You'll want to read p.22 of the BRB.

 

Firing over a barrier: Models that are in base

contact with a linear piece of terrain they can see

over, such as a low wall, barricade, tank trap or a

fence, can fire at enemies on the other side without

the barrier getting in the way of their shots.

 

QFT.

[Praeger]

keep in mind that if that "gretchin-wall" was anywhere further away then base contact then the enemy WOULD get a cover save.

 

Your 1" away from the wall, his 12" away from it - he still gets cover.

[Steelmage99]

Not sure I agree.

You don't have to touch a piece of terrain to claim cover from it.

Is the Ork obscured from the point of view of the Marine?

Is the Marine obscured from the point of view of the Ork?

That is all that matters IMO

 

http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/100211797.jpg

[Isiah]

Not sure I agree.

You don't have to touch a piece of terrain to claim cover from it.

If you want to shoot over linear terrain unhindered (in other words without the enemy unit getting a cover save) then yes you need to be within b2b with it.

If you are shooting and not in b2b with it, then if the target unit meets the LOS/cover criteria then they'd get a cover save.

[Democratus]

Not sure I agree.

You don't have to touch a piece of terrain to claim cover from it.

If you want to shoot over linear terrain unhindered (in other words without the enemy unit getting a cover save) then yes you need to be within b2b with it.

If you are shooting and not in b2b with it, then if the target unit meets the LOS/cover criteria then they'd get a cover save.

 

If TLOS from the eyes of the model is not obscured, then a linear piece of terrain will not grant a cover save - no matter how far away the terrain is.

 

Get a models-eye view. If the grots/wall/whatever doesn't block sight to the arms, legs, torso or head of your target then no cover save is generated.

[King Tiger]

Not sure I agree.

You don't have to touch a piece of terrain to claim cover from it.

If you want to shoot over linear terrain unhindered (in other words without the enemy unit getting a cover save) then yes you need to be within b2b with it.

If you are shooting and not in b2b with it, then if the target unit meets the LOS/cover criteria then they'd get a cover save.

 

If TLOS from the eyes of the model is not obscured, then a linear piece of terrain will not grant a cover save - no matter how far away the terrain is.

 

Get a models-eye view. If the grots/wall/whatever doesn't block sight to the arms, legs, torso or head of your target then no cover save is generated.

this is where common sense and fair play come into it, although those few words don't exist in 40k in any Capacity

 

COMMON SENSE, SO RARE ITS A GADDAMN SUPER POWER

[Playa]

Hey,

 

this is where common sense and fair play come into it

 

v5 RB p21, Cover: "Intervening models ... save in the same way as ... terrain."

This goes on to cite "friendly" and "enemy" models - clearly not terrain models.

 

v5 RB p22, Exceptions: "Firing over a [barrier] ... low wall, barricade, tank trap or fence ... "

Here, we're told that linear terrain models can intervene as well as friendlies or enemies.

Yet no guidance is given as to the point at which a terrain model becomes "linear".

 

There's just not enough there to offer a solid toehold for common sense.

Fair play would be to just use the same silly rule for both sides.

Or simply reserve "linear" terrain for other games . . .

 

 

Playa

[Frosty the Pyro]

Cover is judged from TLOS if no part of the targeted unit is blocked by someting, it gets no cover, unless you are shooting through someting that would give cover, or the target is in area terrain. Note that is through, not over, fireing over does not give cover. Pg 22 of the BRB covers it fairly throughly in the third bullet. In truth the linear terrain bit only applies against shooting an enemy that is very close to the wall so that the wall would block los (likely to the targets foot)

[Steelmage99]

Not sure I agree.

You don't have to touch a piece of terrain to claim cover from it.

If you want to shoot over linear terrain unhindered (in other words without the enemy unit getting a cover save) then yes you need to be within b2b with it.

 

That can't be true. Even though the Ork is not in base-to-base with the wall (erh...Grot), the Ork can shoot unhindered at the Marine, right?

 

http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/107348592.jpg

[Cedric]

First, the grots are a friendly unit, not linear terrain.

 

Second, I believe this discussion is about shooting over nearby walls. Being on a different level of the wall likely makes the wall useless as cover.

[Steelmage99]

How hard is it to replace the Grot with a wall? Kinda like I suggested earlier.

 

It seems pretty simple. Replace the gretchin with a wall, if it helps

 

 

 

Also you missed the point. Try to read what I actually responded to.

 

Do you see it?

 

The statement that said; "If you want to shoot over linear terrain unhindered (in other words without the enemy unit getting a cover save) then yes you need to be within b2b with it."?

 

See it now?

 

As show, it is very possible to shoot over a wall (assuming you can indeed replace the Grot with a wall. As suggested earlier) without the enemy getting a coversave, without being in b2b with said wall.

[Frosty the Pyro]

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7350/covers.th.jpg

 

Its kinda simple in situations 2 and 3 you use TLoS, in situation 1 the BtB rule on pg 22 takes precidence

 

so case 1, no cover save because you are base to base with the wall, even though the wall does block vision

case 2 no cover save, because the wall does not block los at all

case 3 COVER SAVE, you are not BtB with the wall, and it does block los, nest time manuver better.

[eyescrossed]

I agree with Frosty.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

First, the grots are a friendly unit, not linear terrain.

 

So? Friendly units give cover just the same as any terrain that's in the way. So rules for cover will work just the same, weather it's actual terrain or friendly/enemy models that obscure LOS.

[Frosty the Pyro]

First, the grots are a friendly unit, not linear terrain.

 

So? Friendly units give cover just the same as any terrain that's in the way. So rules for cover will work just the same, weather it's actual terrain or friendly/enemy models that obscure LOS.

 

No they dont, the rules specify liniar terrain, bing in BtB with a freindly squad does not allow you to ignore them, your enemy will have a cover save unless you have a clear line of sight OVER the grots. Id Est if you replaced the wall in my picture with grots then case 1 would cause a cover save, case 2 still would not, and case 3 still would.

[Ian MacKay]

Hmm. Reading this thread and my BRB shows a problem with the substitution of a grot for a wall.

 

Page 22, third point under Exceptions: "If a model fires through the gaps...between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible." Or gives a cover save. Also, the ork could NOT be in b2b contact with the grot without breaking the rules anyway. Need 1" between units.

 

This is opposed to the last bullet on page 22 regarding barriers: "models that are in base contact with a linear piece of terrain...can fire at enemies on the other side without the barrier getting in the way of their shots." Or without giving a cover save.

 

If you are not in base contact when firing over a wall, you give the target a 4+ cover save per the list on page 21 of the BRB. If you are in b2b contact, your target does not get a cover save.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Hmm. Reading this thread and my BRB shows a problem with the substitution of a grot for a wall.

 

Page 22, third point under Exceptions: "If a model fires through the gaps...between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible." Or gives a cover save. Also, the ork could NOT be in b2b contact with the grot without breaking the rules anyway. Need 1" between units.

I think you only have to stay 1" away from enemy units, your own can rub shoulders all they want. and yeah fireing though the gaps gives a cover save, firing over does not.

This is opposed to the last bullet on page 22 regarding barriers: "models that are in base contact with a linear piece of terrain...can fire at enemies on the other side without the barrier getting in the way of their shots." Or without giving a cover save.

 

If you are not in base contact when firing over a wall, you give the target a 4+ cover save per the list on page 21 of the BRB. If you are in b2b contact, your target does not get a cover save.

Again only if the wall interferes with your LOS, you can still be positioned (see example 2 in my amazing paint art) so that you can fire over the wall without being in btb, being in BtB simply meand you get to ignor the wall altogether (asuming your head is higher than the wall)

[Ian MacKay]

I think you only have to stay 1" away from enemy units, your own can rub shoulders all they want. and yeah fireing though the gaps gives a cover save, firing over does not.

I can't find a rule, but any Ork or BT player that doesn't keep his hordes separated is close to cheating... :P

 

Again only if the wall interferes with your LOS, you can still be positioned (see example 2 in my amazing paint art) so that you can fire over the wall without being in btb, being in BtB simply meand you get to ignor the wall altogether (asuming your head is higher than the wall)

 

I'm going to go along with that. My main issue was the use of grots in place of the wall since the exceptions state you ALWAYS get a cover save for shooting through friendlies, even ones you can see over. ;) Grot walls work both ways.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I think you only have to stay 1" away from enemy units, your own can rub shoulders all they want. and yeah fireing though the gaps gives a cover save, firing over does not.

I can't find a rule, but any Ork or BT player that doesn't keep his hordes separated is close to cheating... :P

 

Again only if the wall interferes with your LOS, you can still be positioned (see example 2 in my amazing paint art) so that you can fire over the wall without being in btb, being in BtB simply meand you get to ignor the wall altogether (asuming your head is higher than the wall)

 

I'm going to go along with that. My main issue was the use of grots in place of the wall since the exceptions state you ALWAYS get a cover save for shooting through friendlies, even ones you can see over. ;) Grot walls work both ways.

 

 

No they dont, the point (third bullet pg 22) you are talking about specificly states the cover save is only givin if the shots go through the unit, shots that go over something always ignore that somthing. or to quote "note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it."