Shooting from cover

[Ian MacKay]

I think you only have to stay 1" away from enemy units, your own can rub shoulders all they want. and yeah fireing though the gaps gives a cover save, firing over does not.

I can't find a rule, but any Ork or BT player that doesn't keep his hordes separated is close to cheating... :P

 

Again only if the wall interferes with your LOS, you can still be positioned (see example 2 in my amazing paint art) so that you can fire over the wall without being in btb, being in BtB simply meand you get to ignor the wall altogether (asuming your head is higher than the wall)

 

I'm going to go along with that. My main issue was the use of grots in place of the wall since the exceptions state you ALWAYS get a cover save for shooting through friendlies, even ones you can see over. ;) Grot walls work both ways.

 

 

No they dont, the point (third bullet pg 22) you are talking about specificly states the cover save is only givin if the shots go through the unit, shots that go over something always ignore that somthing. or to quote "note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it."

 

Bleah!. Didn't see that. It's 4 am. I'm surprised I can still type at all. Or think. :) I knew there was a reason I hate grots more now.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

First, the grots are a friendly unit, not linear terrain.

 

So? Friendly units give cover just the same as any terrain that's in the way. So rules for cover will work just the same, weather it's actual terrain or friendly/enemy models that obscure LOS.

 

No they dont, the rules specify liniar terrain, bing in BtB with a freindly squad does not allow you to ignore them, your enemy will have a cover save unless you have a clear line of sight OVER the grots. Id Est if you replaced the wall in my picture with grots then case 1 would cause a cover save, case 2 still would not, and case 3 still would.

 

So, which part are you disagreeing with, exactly? What you seem to be 'correcting' me on, I never said, nor implied. Cover, weather by terrain, or by friendly/enemy models, works just the same (not counting area terrain). We seem to be in agreement, from the rest of this thread, that you could only ever negate the cover save by firing *over* whatever is in the way, while firing through always grants the save. I never said anything to the contrary.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The wall (linear terrain) IS different from a gretchin for purposes of cover. Because if you are BtB with the wall and your model is taller than the wall, you can ignor the wall, even if it would have proved cover elsewise (see example 1 in my wonderfull paint art). If that wall was a gretchen the gretchen would provide cover to the marines, because it is liniear terain and the ork is BtB with it the marine does not get a cover save. saying that freindly/enemy units work just the same as terain is not so because they do not have the BtB coviet.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

They both still work off of TLoS... And both can be worked around when shooting over them, regardless of distance between them and the shooter. And both will obscure LoS when shooting through them. So, yes, IMHO they work pretty much the same way. They both follow/use the same main rules. The only thing about BtB contact that wouldn't apply to units is the enemy also being in BtB (which isn't really needed, as that would be a close combat instead of any shooting)

 

The only major difference between units and general terrain, is one that units share with area terrain. Shooting through, even if 100% visable, still grants a cover save.

[Frosty the Pyro]

They both still work off of TLoS... And both can be worked around when shooting over them, regardless of distance between them and the shooter. And both will obscure LoS when shooting through them. So, yes, IMHO they work pretty much the same way. They both follow/use the same main rules. The only thing about BtB contact that wouldn't apply to units is the enemy also being in BtB (which isn't really needed, as that would be a close combat instead of any shooting)

 

The only major difference between units and general terrain, is one that units share with area terrain. Shooting through, even if 100% visable, still grants a cover save.

 

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2777/coverforstuborn.th.jpg

 

When the ork is shooting though the wall, the marine does not get a cover save.

When the ork is shooting though the grot the marine does get a cover save.

 

I dont know how else to explain it, but when one gives a cover save and one does not, i consider it different. especialy when in respect to cover. yeah its not something that comes up often, but it is in the BrB and it is the situation that has ben discused the whole thread.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Reread my posts... I never said shooting through did NOT give a save. I've been saying, this whole time, shooting over doesn't. And that, both ways (through=cover/over=no cover) works the same, weather it's terrain or another unit/model in between.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Reread my posts... I never said shooting through did NOT give a save. I've been saying, this whole time, shooting over doesn't. And that, both ways (through=cover/over=no cover) works the same, weather it's terrain or another unit/model in between.

well your right, except for the part where you can shoot through a wall without giving a save (see example one, the ork is shooting through, not over, the wall he is in base to base with), which is the distinction, shooting through a unit always gives a save, shooting though terain does not (the examples being up to 2" of area terrain you are in and a wall you are in btb with), it is an important distinction.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Well you can't really shoot 'through' normal terrain. It's either obscured, covered, or not. If it's covered, it can't be shot, if it's obscured, it gets the save. And area terrain, even if 100% clear, always gives a save... So, I fail to see how shooting through terrain could end up *not* giving a save.

[DevianID]

Just to throw a bone, a flat piece of area terrain does not give cover to anything. In order to claim a cover save from area terrain, you must be between 2 features of said area terrain, ie two trees, that can provide cover to your model. AKA, grits of sand on a piece of paper dont count as features for shooting through area terrain to give cover.

 

This rule can be frustrating, because you might call a hill area terrain due to its clearly defined borders, then expect your model on top of the hill completely in the open to have a 4+ cover save cause your in area terrain. Sadly though, while on top of a hill, even an area terrain hill, there are no obscuring features for the model to claim cover from.

[Steelmage99]

Are you sure about that, DevianID?

 

I seem to remember both the illustration and the wording saying you recieve the coversave when standing inside area terrain, even "outside" the features of the terrain.

 

EDIT.

 

Yep. Page 22, model A.

[Isiah]

Yes models in area terrain are considered in cover providing of course the type of terrain grants a cover save anyway. Remember sometimes area terrain details areas of marsh, bog or toxic lake that are used to determine difficult or impassable terrain for movement purposes whilst itself not granting any particular cover. In all cases the 'base' of the area terrain defines the outer boundaries of that terrain feature.

 

If in modelling terms it has 10 trees, 5 trees or just two it makes no odds if it's a wood, if it's wooded area terrain and you're in it that your're in cover.

 

The two features you mention DevianD are taken into account when firing through area terrain at a target and you are right, if the model is seen between two such area terrain features (but the model is not itself in area terrain) it is in cover in that situation. This actually makes the modelling of such features fairly important ie with enough features to create the required bits to grant a save when firing through it.

 

Anyway can a single hill be area terrain – doesn't normal true LOS take over? A number of small mounds or rocky outcrops yes area terrain maybe.

 

The best bet in all these situations is talk about the terrain first before these things crop up during a game.

[nighthawks]

Well you can't really shoot 'through' normal terrain. It's either obscured, covered, or not. If it's covered, it can't be shot, if it's obscured, it gets the save. And area terrain, even if 100% clear, always gives a save... So, I fail to see how shooting through terrain could end up *not* giving a save.

zeke - linear terrain (not area) that the firer is in base contact with does not confer a save to the target, even if LOS is partially blocked (no LOS no target, still) - see BRB P22 bullet point #5 "firing over a barrier."

[HiveFleetEzekial]

*That* is still not shooting 'through' the terrain. That is, effectively, shooting over it, in that case. Which was not what I was talking about anyways. I know *that* case doesn't block LOS). I asked about other, normal, terrain. Something you can't shoot 'through' without giving a cover save (unless it's from a cover ignoring weapon, ofcourse).

[nighthawks]

it can block LOS and still not confer a cover save. that's all I was getting at. anything else that obscures the target body grants cover.