Vind Assassin Operative

[IraSummers]

I'm curious to hear peoples opinions and experiences on the Vindicare Assassin Operative. I tested a 1750 in a mini-Appoc game Saturday (4 players, 1750 a person). I did fairly rough, though that was because I was sick and as DH are fairly new to me, forgot several of my rules in use (shrouding, Agies armor, etc). I fielded the Vind for the first time seance I played IG Armored Company back in 3rd. 3 rounds and he failed to do anything... 1 miss, 1 failed to damage (3d6 turbo pen into 10 armour = 6) and the most critical shot, using the 2+ to wound, he failed again.

 

Granted this is only one game of testing, and in a strange situation. I want to hear your opinions on him, or who you use. I also want to hear how you use him and how you deploy him. Thanks!

[number6]

I fielded the Vind for the first time seance I played IG Armored Company back in 3rd. 3 rounds and he failed to do anything... 1 miss, 1 failed to damage (3d6 turbo pen into 10 armour = 6) and the most critical shot, using the 2+ to wound, he failed again.

And this is exactly why the Vindicare is the worst of all the Operatives. You might get lucky with him, ... but that's just it. He is so terribly luck dependent as to be not worth it. Just going on pure statistics, and assuming that all targets you select won't get a cover save, he will still kill a bit less than 3 models per game. And if your targets get cover saves -- highly likely in the current gaming environment -- then you're down to less than 2 models killed per game on average.

 

And there are also a number of armies where killing a single model is rarely going to net you that much strategic value (e.g., Tau, Necrons, etc.)

 

So he's not only beneficial against a subset of the armies in the game, he's also incredibly situational and luck dependent.

 

Scout Sgt Telion is a much better sniper, rules-wise, than the Vindicare. Awesome model, awful (and useless) rules.

 

Take the Callidus or Eversor instead. Heck, take the Culexus instead! Even if he can't kill anything in most games, his LD bubble can be a useful tactical tool.

[ArmouredWing]

Scout Sgt Telion is a much better sniper, rules-wise, than the Vindicare. Awesome model, awful (and useless) rules.

I think I'd have to disagree with you here number 6. The vindicare can be a bit hit and miss (pardon the pun) but toe to toe against telion? The vindicare will come out on top. The biggest key to playing him is picking the right target at the right time, he won't work miracles but he can supply some much needed long range support to the general advance.

 

I like him and he's worked for me a number of times but he's definitely not a no brainer to use.

[Imperator Mos]

Don't use him much, but I had him tie up a Defiler in CC for 3 turns at a tournament. That was, I think, his most memoral achievement.

[panbient]

i use the vindicare on a regular basis. while it's true that he never makes his points back, and fails to hit more often than he wounds, the vindicare is a great psychological weapon to use against your opponent.

 

i use the vindicare in the same way i use orbital bombardments, as a way of limiting my opponent's perception of the table. so long as they think that a quadrant is dangerous due to the Vs presence then it's succcessful. i've found the karma of the dice gods tends to smile on the V quite often too, when opponents think he's toothless i'll get lucky rolls and break something they consider 'key' to their current strategy.

[IraSummers]

Thank you everyone for your replies, please keep comments and such coming!

 

The Evesor is growing on me, he seems like a beast in close combat. The reason I went with the Vind is for other then a multitde of reasons I thought along with a number of Grey Knights, that we could use some more shooting support. I did not get to make use of infiltrate (Appoc rules...yeay...) and he did not have a large selection of targts, but he shot every round and failed to do ANYTHING. I have been having alot of bad luck with dice as of late, so perhaps that alot of it. Just seems like 36" range is not much (I'm also a Tau player), hiting on 2+ is good but wounding on 4+, he should be a better shot then that. Granted high toughness could work well, but normaly have so many wounds they will not even worry about him. I am going to try him in a few more single games and see if he fares better, but will likely get an evesor to use as well. I alread have a calidus model, just need to fix it (basing is messed up).

 

Anyone got any advice on how to deploy him without him drawing either all the fire or lots of CC troops in the first few turns untill the rest of the army can get there? Thanks!

[Marid]

i use the vindicare on a regular basis. while it's true that he never makes his points back, and fails to hit more often than he wounds, the vindicare is a great psychological weapon to use against your opponent.

 

i use the vindicare in the same way i use orbital bombardments, as a way of limiting my opponent's perception of the table. so long as they think that a quadrant is dangerous due to the Vs presence then it's succcessful. i've found the karma of the dice gods tends to smile on the V quite often too, when opponents think he's toothless i'll get lucky rolls and break something they consider 'key' to their current strategy.

 

While I haven't used my Vindicare, I can understand the difficulty in assigning points to 'artillery' pieces. It would be interesting to see an article on using 'artillery' in DH lists. That is, units that help deny territory to or movement of your opponent. My gut feeling is that a Lance Strike would be more terrifying than a Vindicare.

 

It would be nice if the Vindicare didn't have limited ammunition. For his cost I don't think it is a stretch to ask for that change.

[glsn]

I've used a Vindicare twice, once against Space Marines, the other against Tyrnaids. Both were city fight with the Master Sniper Strategim (no cover saves against sniper rifles). In the Space Marine battle, he was less then stellar. Removed a Multi-Melta from a dread and that was it. In the Tyrnaid battle, it was different. A Carnifex tooled out for close combat, I mean completely tooled out (extra wound, better armour, regeneration, crushing claws, tusks...), charged by Grey Knight Terminators and while killing two of them, had only one wound left. The vindicare, using the hellfire round finished him for me so I could charge the warriors behind him. My opinion, highly situational, but could be a game winner.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

couldn't you take the vindi and even ally in a scout squad with Tellion as the sergeant to produce a 2 super sniper army??

 

If it was my choice, I'd unlimit his ammo, Have him ignore Cover Saves (Possibly a new ammo), make his rifle Poison 2+ and then bump his points up 30-40 But thats me and I feel the Vindi should be a smoking hot choice.

[NemFX]

It all depends on your enemy.

 

For example, try not to waste your shots on footsloggers if you can help it. Take out useful characters like Farseers, or Sicarius (who provides an army-wide bonus if memory serves) if you can't do that, take out anyone with a heavy weapon or a template weapon.

 

There are two main factors in this game; force amplifiers, and force nullifiers. The vindicare is the latter of those two. It's role is to cripple the tactical advantages of the other player. Use it as such.

[panbient]

My gut feeling is that a Lance Strike would be more terrifying than a Vindicare.

 

It would be nice if the Vindicare didn't have limited ammunition. For his cost I don't think it is a stretch to ask for that change.

 

 

it is. :P

 

i agree

[Alanter]

Or let him use all his ammo together - even with limited ammo. There are so many enemys that just do not care one special shot. MC for example have high T, invul save and multi wounds. In order to kill them you need all special rules. Even an orc nob is hard work for the vindicare.

The only thing that he can do well is killing that guy with the special weapon - but then again wounding an imperial stormtrooper with a plasma gun on 4+ isn't worth his points.

He should be Heavy 3 and should have a rule which let him fire at multiple targets. One special shot per round would be ok, too I think.

[ArmouredWing]

The one thing I would have to say is that with the rumoured release of an inquisitor suppliment to the C:IG there's a very good possibility that all of the assassins will be brushed up to reflect their elite nature.

 

With 5th ed they've all taken a hit to a certain extent. I occaisionally used the callidus and eversor in 4th but have found in 5th that neither are as useful as before primarily because of the counter charge/consoladation that everyone can now do to get into CC.

The vindicare is less affected because of the nature of his abilities, i.e. ranged rather than CC, but he's still fairly fragile in the grand scheme of things. As I've said before he does take some managing to get the best out of him and for the points it is very much debatable whether it's worth the sink. I do like to put him on the able now and again just as another 'heavy support' unit.

 

Maybe we'll see the assassins become worth their points again in the not too distant future, I wouldn't hold my breath mind but I'll still be quietly optimistic.

[GodwynDi]

I actually like the vindicare assassin, and tend to do quite well with him. I have had him kill of everything from Necron Lords, Daemon Princes, to Leman Russ tanks. Luck does play some part in it, but in this game what doesn't? As has been mentioned, it is all on choosing targets properly.

 

Two most memorable moments: Apoc game, steal first turn Vindicare pops a Leman Russ penetrating hit table is a 6, distance is a 6. Explosion reaches 48 guardsmen.

 

1750 points, Daemon prince down to last wound, charges vindicare assassin in cover. Vindicare strikes first and manages to kill it. Which granted really has nothing to do with him as a sniper, but it was great.

[Phoenix Knight]

Scout Sgt Telion is a much better sniper, rules-wise, than the Vindicare. Awesome model, awful (and useless) rules.

I think I'd have to disagree with you here number 6. The vindicare can be a bit hit and miss (pardon the pun) but toe to toe against telion? The vindicare will come out on top. The biggest key to playing him is picking the right target at the right time, he won't work miracles but he can supply some much needed long range support to the general advance.

 

I like him and he's worked for me a number of times but he's definitely not a no brainer to use.

I've used Telion against ArmouredWing using a Vindicare in the same battle and Telion was completely outclassed. (and it was nothing to do with dice rolls). Telions good, but he's a buff to a sniper squad. The Vindicare is a super sniper who is pretty difficult to shoot at at long range and he has a lot more verstile ammo. The Turbo-penetrator is DAMN good at taking out expensive Land Raiders! You just need him in the right place at the right time to make a mess of well laid plans. And that is exactly what an assassin is supposed to do! If hes out in the open or with no field of fire then you haven't been through assassin school yet.

[the blind knight]

God amongst men.The ultimate killer.

 

I haye yet to field him wiithout sucess.And the best part as my army grows,so do the battles I play,and he gets better and better,to the point that my friend expends ALL his army on him for two turnd just to be sure,he will stay down.

 

So far he has clamed:

 

-a full sized Broadside unit with one shot

-5 various Exarch models

-7 tanks

-dozens of objective holding/game winning infantry models

 

 

The key to using him as,as is much in 40k,target priority,and that works in two ways:

 

1)Target hich priority one wound or semi light tanks and transports.After the fourth turn start picking off models in troops choices and in close combat.

 

2)Find out what yours enemy favourite model EVER is,kill him and watch and he wastes away dozens off shots at you out of a grudge.The key here is to deploy far away from your army so he has to redirect a part of the charge.I know this is playing the pyschological card,but damit it works.

[Apogee]

I don't use him all that much, but when I do, I count on him making two kills - thats all. I count on at least hurting a tank with the turbo-pen, and I count on killing one single-wound model with the Hellfire (I think). He almost never makes back his points, but removing, say, the powerfist from a squad means that my sisters/'hosts/cannoness can get stuck in without fear of smushage.

 

As a side note, if the enemy does get close (within a foot), I often rush him out of cover. Pop off a shot with the pistol, and tie something small up in CC. He isn't half bad in CC, and he ususally lasts at least one round against non-specialists. But I agree with what was said above: he is not a killer, he's a neutralizer. He mucks up the enemy plan, doesn't forward your own. You can NEVER rely on him as part of your plan. Instead, he just helps with targets of opportunity.

[IraSummers]

Scout Sgt Telion is a much better sniper, rules-wise, than the Vindicare. Awesome model, awful (and useless) rules.

I think I'd have to disagree with you here number 6. The vindicare can be a bit hit and miss (pardon the pun) but toe to toe against telion? The vindicare will come out on top. The biggest key to playing him is picking the right target at the right time, he won't work miracles but he can supply some much needed long range support to the general advance.

 

I like him and he's worked for me a number of times but he's definitely not a no brainer to use.

I've used Telion against ArmouredWing using a Vindicare in the same battle and Telion was completely outclassed. (and it was nothing to do with dice rolls). Telions good, but he's a buff to a sniper squad. The Vindicare is a super sniper who is pretty difficult to shoot at at long range and he has a lot more verstile ammo. The Turbo-penetrator is DAMN good at taking out expensive Land Raiders! You just need him in the right place at the right time to make a mess of well laid plans. And that is exactly what an assassin is supposed to do! If hes out in the open or with no field of fire then you haven't been through assassin school yet.

 

How did he take out 6-12 wounds from a single shot on a broadside team, with possible 4+ invul on many of them?

[DevianID]

Is it confirmed that you can shoot into close combat? I know that you couldnt in 4th edition due to having no rule for how to draw LOS to models in combat, but in 5th the wording may have changed regarding if shooting into combat is a restriction or not.

 

My problem with assassians is what to do with the inquisitor you are required to take... if it was just the assassian then I think they would find their way into more armies, as allies or not; having to add the steep point cost of the INQ model pushes the assassian out of question for most games.

[SJumppanen]

Is it confirmed that you can shoot into close combat? I know that you couldnt in 4th edition due to having no rule for how to draw LOS to models in combat, but in 5th the wording may have changed regarding if shooting into combat is a restriction or not.

 

Just see FAQ, it should still be there.

 

(AFAIK it has always been possible for Vindicare assasin to shoot into Melee)

[ArmouredWing]

AFAIK it has always been possible for Vindicare assasin to shoot into Melee

Arguable. There was no definitive answer to this in 4th ed and I made a point of asking Graham McNeil this very question when he was doing a book signing in warhammer world. His response was that although the rule was somewhat 'woolly' and could be interpretted to that extent he said that the intent was that the Vindicare could not fire into CC.

 

5th ed comes along and we get clarity on the marksman rule which is opposition to what I was told by one of the codex authors (both C:WH & C:DH) which does show to an extent that there are differing opinions, even in the GW design studio camp.

 

Still, it makes for interesting conversation/debate... ^_^

[Thaelion Hexis]

AFAIK it has always been possible for Vindicare assasin to shoot into Melee

Arguable. There was no definitive answer to this in 4th ed and I made a point of asking Graham McNeil this very question when he was doing a book signing in warhammer world. His response was that although the rule was somewhat 'woolly' and could be interpretted to that extent he said that the intent was that the Vindicare could not fire into CC.

 

5th ed comes along and we get clarity on the marksman rule which is opposition to what I was told by one of the codex authors (both C:WH & C:DH) which does show to an extent that there are differing opinions, even in the GW design studio camp.

 

Still, it makes for interesting conversation/debate... ;)

 

That question was actually answered in a FaQ back in 3rd, I think. It was also in one of the chapter approved books.

 

I have never used a vindicare myself. Some opponents of mine do, occasionally, he has never been a big threat. I just ignore him and focus on the rest of the army.

[The Superbird]

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/search...Witch%20Hunters

 

I was reading this the other day, it says some pretty radical things (about the Vindicare) in reference to targeting restrictions such as shooting your own models and shooting into assaults. Just wondering if you Veterans of 40K could look it over ...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I was reading this the other day, it says some pretty radical things (about the Vindicare) in reference to targeting restrictions such as shooting your own models and shooting into assaults. Just wondering if you Veterans of 40K could look it over ...

 

Shooting into Assault has been FAQed to say you can now do it. I suspect the targeting one's own models isn't stopped by RAW because GW never thought there could be a reason for doing so. Yes, there is a convention that you shoot the enemy and not yourself, but I think they never though anyone would break it, and so didn't bother making a rule preventing someone doing that.