The_Betrayed_Spacewolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 however i dont believe there is anything to support that the dark wolves are in fact space wolves aside from the second word in each ones names. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 however i dont believe there is anything to support that the dark wolves are in fact space wolves aside from the second word in each ones names. It's a pretty obvious answer though, their armor color is similar, their shoulder pad markings are a warped Wolf's head and they were first sited in the Fenris sector. Too many coincidences. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Until this story had been fabricated even the traitors of my gaming club knew the wolves of Russ were best. The second they got their hands on this filth they were anrmed with a hammer and weren't afraid to bash with it. It frustrates me so much each time I'm told it or I mearly see the chaos codex. From everything I have read of the wolves up until that point I thought them immune to the influences of chaos as they would simply revert to wulfen should they let there guard down (the same way chaos takes hold, forcing your guard down) so they would either be loyal or be reduced to base animals. The thing with ragnar nearly turning to chaos was before he got all of his space marine do-da's meaning even as a mortal man he was capable (if only just) of rejecting the falsities of chaos. As far as I'm concerned now the wolves were killed on that ship after reaping a heavy toll on Hurons forces and he fabricated the whole turning some traitor as he knew his peers would respect such an impossible feat regardless of the casualties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I was also referring to Skyrar's Dark Wolves, apparently a whole Chaos Warband. Which is why I said you were missing the point. ;) Does that clear that up? If we follow the same logic then what of the loyal Red Wolves who wear Ragnar's symbol on their pauldrons and are based in the same Segmentum as Fenris? It's a pretty obvious answer though, their armor color is similar, their shoulder pad markings are a warped Wolf's head and they were first sited in the Fenris sector. Too many coincidences. Well it's grey, the wrong grey, not space wolves grey - not even their pre-heracy grey - but, yes, like the Red Wolves, they use a wolf symbol and their leader has a name which may be derived from Fenris or countless other worlds with Fenno-Scandanavian colonists. Much of the data in C:CSM comes from our great friends in the Inquisition but if you want to believe that there is a warband of oathbreakers out there based on the Inquisition's word and your own leaps of logic then crack on! However, I think, little brother, that we've fought the ruinous powers long enough to be able to smell their hand in this. Whilst we must not ignore our own weaknesses, it seems that the insidious forces of Chaos have found it easy enough to create doubt in the minds of some brothers here... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Just because it's not 100% certain doesn't give us liscence to just ignore the existence of Skyrar's Dark Wolves as much as we may not like it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I figured it was a lost company personally.... that or a damnable mockery, not sure wich. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Look carefully at the picture of Skyrars Dark Wolves - Blue upper legs and Shoulder trims. They may well be damned brothers of ours. But it matters not from where they came. They are damned now, and we will hunt them from this universe. So ends all heretics and traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Just because it's not 100% certain doesn't give us liscence to just ignore the existence of Skyrar's Dark Wolves as much as we may not like it. Umm, maybe we're taking part in separate conversations. I didn't said anything about ignoring them, in fact quite the opposite. Neither did I mention a need to be 100% certain, just that you were making unsupported leaps in an argument based on heretical data. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I didn't said anything about ignoring them, in fact quite the opposite. Neither did I mention a need to be 100% certain, just that you were making unsupported leaps in an argument based on heretical data. :lol: Hardly unsupported leaps, if Skyrar's Dark Wolves aren't fallen Space Wolves than I'm King of England. Like I said it's obvious what they're supposed to be whether you trust the source or not and if you think that's an "unsupported leap" then your insinuating they aren't fallen Space Wolves and ignoring the obvious connections. I don't see the point in blowing off the Dark Wolves as some supposed chaos trick. It's an annoying new turn with the background material but it's in a codex and the connections are obvious. Rather than pretend the Dark Wolves don't exist or aren't really Space Wolves I'd think it's more constructive to hunt them down and give them a good thrashing. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1896981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Couldn't disagree more brother Vash. Space Wolf or Wulfen. That's it. At least that's the story I'm sticking with! :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 That's two that disagree then, so it's only obvious in your opinion. Perhaps, I'm just used to being slightly more exacting in my treatment of sources and data to develop a credible argument or maybe I'm wrong... Either way, I am more than happy to join you in giving them a good thrashing. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Fluff wise there is no reason For SW to turn to chaos. The canis helix is supposed to be proof against this. the inner wulfen is repelled by chaos and becomes stronger when it sences the taint of chaos. So ok the SW is encounterung chaos might get overwelmed and the wulfen inside him kicks into action and rather than succombing to chaos the SW becomes ferel and wild. Some who dont know SW may say that the marine has mutated into a chaos beast but SW know that Wulfen are not chaos. Sw are not oath breakers that they would kill thier own kin. They would die in battle like real hero's than live as cowards. It all in thier DNA. The story by GW just reaked of bad writing. I for one believe it to be nothing but chaos propaganda. As for the Dark wolves who knows if they are even Sw at all and if they are SW than who knows if they are not just a splinter group? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Fully agree with beef. And as far as skyrar and his dark wolves I think they are most likly traitors of the red wolves fellas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Fluff wise there is no reason For SW to turn to chaos. The canis helix is supposed to be proof against this. the inner wulfen is repelled by chaos and becomes stronger when it sences the taint of chaos. So ok the SW is encounterung chaos might get overwelmed and the wulfen inside him kicks into action and rather than succombing to chaos the SW becomes ferel and wild. Some who dont know SW may say that the marine has mutated into a chaos beast but SW know that Wulfen are not chaos. Sw are not oath breakers that they would kill thier own kin. They would die in battle like real hero's than live as cowards. It all in thier DNA. The story by GW just reaked of bad writing. I for one believe it to be nothing but chaos propaganda. As for the Dark wolves who knows if they are even Sw at all and if they are SW than who knows if they are not just a splinter group? War within, always. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 That's two that disagree then, so it's only obvious in your opinion. Perhaps, I'm just used to being slightly more exacting in my treatment of sources and data to develop a credible argument or maybe I'm wrong... Disagreeing more out of bias towards the SW than anything else I think, I guess I'm not going to find a lot of support on this matter *shrug*. However why does everyone assume that no Space Wolf ever breaks their oaths? We know for a fact that they do in the material we have on the Lost Companies, some forsake their oaths to the Great Wolf and go off to do their own thing and some have broken oaths for one reason or another over time. After all how can the Space Wolves be trained to dread oath breaking so much without poignant examples of those who have foolishly done so in the past either blatantly or by accident? Ragnar himself was an Oath Breaker do not forget, he broke his oaths to the Primarch Leman Russ when he lost the Spear of Russ. His purposes were noble and he did the right thing but he was labeled an Oath Breaker nonetheless. Besides I seriously doubt that in 10,000 years of war and existence no Space Wolf has ever willingly forsaken their oaths or turned to chaos, remember chaos is not just overwhelming corruption it's also suggestion. Space Wolves are born to war I would imagine that some over the course of 10,000 years of fighting have figured Khorn has the right idea, or that Slaanesh can offer some nice perks. Nurgle and Tzeentch are much harder sells but lets be honest here the Space Wolves are not perfect, I love their background and they are IMO the coolest, most individual and fun Chapter around but they aren't the Grey Knights and can't claim never having lost a single marine to the taint of chaos. The Wolves are actually IMO the coolest because they aren't perfect nancy boys like the Ultramarines and don't pretend to be. They drink, they fight, they hold grudges, they have fun. They wouldn't be nearly so appealing if they were the perfect paragons of truth, justice and purity, that's no fun, after all there's no ale in that line of work. Ok to be honest I'm taking the Devil's Advocate position here but still I hope I managed to get my point across at least a little. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well, Vash, I think many would agree that Space Wolves have forsaken their oaths, myself included. HOWEVER, genetically, as far as we know, it doesn't seem feasable that they would actually turn to Chaos. They might even become a pawn, someone using the canis helix against them, but to literally choose Chaos is impossible, as the Canis Helix would override the choice, in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
perplexiti Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 On the other hand there had been NO mention of Chaos Space Wolves until the new Chaos Codex. Now all of a sudden there's chaos SW mini's and Skyrar's Dark Wolves and the Wolf of Fenris tale. Everytime someone appears too "good" some nut case at GW has to go and ruin it. Goodness knows nobody can steal the Ultramarine's lime light. :huh: IIRC in the 3.5 Chaos cosex there was a painted Wolf Guard mini (the one with the wolf chest plate and power sword) that was a Red Corsair, he had red crosses over any Space Wolf or Imperial icons. Also IIRC the Canis Helix doesn't make em immune to Chaos, just a lot more resistant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, Vash, I think many would agree that Space Wolves have forsaken their oaths, myself included. HOWEVER, genetically, as far as we know, it doesn't seem feasable that they would actually turn to Chaos. They might even become a pawn, someone using the canis helix against them, but to literally choose Chaos is impossible, as the Canis Helix would override the choice, in the end. There's no indication though that the Canis Helix overrides anything, it's constantly straining at the leash so to speak and reacts strongly to the presence of Chaos but that doesn't mean that it would rise up and transform the marine into a Wulfen if he turned to chaos. IIRC in the 3.5 Chaos cosex there was a painted Wolf Guard mini (the one with the wolf chest plate and power sword) that was a Red Corsair, he had red crosses over any Space Wolf or Imperial icons. Back then the Red Corsairs weren't exactly Chaos Marines though, they were renegades that were traitors to the Imperium but didn't actually worship chaos. The old form of Red Corsairs actually are well represented in the book Dead Sky, Black Sun. It's only recently that the Red Corsairs have been raised up to a powerfull Chaos Space Marine warband. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke160 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Personaly I always just told myself that the chaos Space Wolves were just Chaos marines in looted Space Wolf armor. My belief is that when the Corsairs tried to take the ship, the Wolves bloodied them up a good bit and as revenge they took the armor off the dead Wolves and wore it to make others believe that there were traitor Wolves and to cast doubt on the Chapter because of the thrashing they recieved. But that is just my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, Vash, I think many would agree that Space Wolves have forsaken their oaths, myself included. HOWEVER, genetically, as far as we know, it doesn't seem feasable that they would actually turn to Chaos. They might even become a pawn, someone using the canis helix against them, but to literally choose Chaos is impossible, as the Canis Helix would override the choice, in the end. Actually, that's not entirely true. If you have read the latest in the Uriel Ventris (sp) saga, the name slips my mind right now and I'm too lazy to go upstairs (the latest ultramarine book whatever it is lol), but anyway, the clone actually tests his combat mettle against several chaos marines, and present was a Wolf Brother. While this chapter obviously had flaws in it which led to it being for the most part purged from the galaxy, the canis helix was used in their making. Theoretically, this would be the same gene sequence that is found in the wolves, though obviously something was flawed in it. I dont think that it can be said that the helix is a PERFECT defense against chaos, as much as one of the BEST defenses, genetically speaking. Either way, we should not let shoddy writing create a somber mood in the mead hall. Fallen wolves, pansy arsed chaos marines, whatever. They are just more fodder for us wolves :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1897840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Ok to be honest I'm taking the Devil's Advocate position here but still I hope I managed to get my point across at least a little. I agree with much of what you have said, brother. We wolves are contrary at best and only give our loyalty grudgingly. I can certainly see plenty of evidence for Great Companies going off and doing their own thing - if they thought it was right. That could, indeed, lead them to being labelled 'hereticus' by the Imperium even if they were still loyal, in their minds (and the Chapters perhaps), to the All Father. I also don't buy into the impossibility of traitor wolves due to the canis helix - the potential link between the wulfen and other changelings with Chaos cannot be discounted so quickly and it makes them obvious targets for Khorn - imagine his joy at having a Wulfen Dreadnought under his control! Further, magic, as we have all seen, can do strange things to even the most stalwart warrior. Skool! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1898153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Its entirely possible Skyrars are chaos bound SWs. I cant discount the possibility. The fact that they show up in chaos codex is definitely saying something to me you know? Im also open to the possibility that they are just a lost company, and were included because they are technically "renegade". Its also possible that they are fallen red wolves.... another inclusion that seems a bit odd. No one seems to know where they came from that Ive seen. As for the canis helix vs chaos. Its a powerful protector Ill admit, but its not perfect. No marine is perfect for that matter... this is after all the grim darkness of the future eh? While it may be adverse to chaos its not in control. Its been known to take over, but many brethren of the Legion have fought the curse of the wulfen for decades, or centuries, without falling to it. Hell, look at the 13nt company! So it can be overcome through force of will... and if your will is bent to becoming a servent of chaos, its entirely possible that you overcome even the inner wulfen until it too is as warped ad your psyche. Speaking of wich.... with all the chaos mutations out there whats stopping chaos from mutating a wolves canis helix to make the inner wulfen work for the infernal beings? Its definitely a tzeentchi thing to do *see previously mentioned books as an example* but I could also see it being bent to khorne- a creatue who can be thrown at the enemy and whos only thought will be rage without mercy. Thats not to different than the red thirst, or blood for the blood good eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1898163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 From what I can tell Lost companies are usually out there because they have said no I'm not working for him (the great wolf of the time) but havn't broken their oath to the imperium/emperor. They just thing they can do more good on their own. As far as chaos bending the will of a wolf while they're incontrol of their inner wolf I see that as unlikly. As you said it takes a great strength of will to keep the inner wolf at bay and it becomes even more ferocious when chaos is about so if chaos starts breaking your will to its own ends the defence is weekened and the wulfen takes control. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1898267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 indeed look at the wolf guard in wolf's honour, i can't remember his name, but he begins to believe he's cursed and all and feels forsaken but instead of going over to the chaos side the wulfen in him takes over, resulting in him killing the imperial officer and all of her loyal troops he can get his hands on, he even kills a fellow SW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1898299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrne Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well my brothers... the answer to this rediculus story is also in the chaos codex. I read about the Alpha legion, how the manage to "infiltrate" chapters and in dare times they would "turn" on ther "fellows" i.e. going back to chaos... somhow they are dormant during the time till they are awakened by some chaos scheem.... You know it could never have been "real" wolves, that day on Fenris... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161410-oath-breakers/page/2/#findComment-1898320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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