multiple units in one assault

[Wonderbraa]

It was my opponants last turn of our game, and i have a tactical squad locked in combat with a fex, 1 gaunt and 2 warriors. On my turn, i charge a 5 man combat squad into the rear of the fex, a tac squad in the rear the warriors and another tac squad led my cassius into the front of the warriors and gaunt.

 

We go through the combat as you would do normally, but then when it came to my turn to strike, my tac squad in the front of the warriors went first (i was eager to use cassius) and they whipe out the gaunt, then the extra wounds i inflicted went onto the warriors and killed them off leaving only the fex. Now because my squad behind the warriors arnt in base to base with the fex, but at the start of combat we were all there, my oppenent threw a hissy fit saying i couldnt attack his fex because i wasnt in base to base and were no longer locked in assault! After a quick flick through the BRB which is really rather useless, it has like half a page on multi unit combats we went to the GW site and it says there clear as day that anyone who was able to fight at the start of combat is able to attack. Something about people in the 4th ed removing models touching a powerfist so it couldnt attack any more.

 

Now both players work out which models in the combat will be able to fight before any attacks are resolved. As long as a model is not slain, it can always fight. This means that 'strategically' removing casualties to deny slower enemies the chance to fight is a thing of the past. Huzzah!

 

Anyway he was throwing a real big tantrum that i couldnt get these 20+ attacks on his fex because i was no longer in base to base. Even after looking at the quote on the site he still wasnt having any of it, giving me something about not being in combat any more, but as far as i was concerned, if those warriors could swing at my squad in base to base with his fex this was a massive stab fest and i was quite entitled to attack it. In the end i conseded because it was the last turn, and i just consolidated onto the objective and won the game. Still, im not happy though. Can some one please give me a clear cut list of rules and the exact order of multi unit combat, just to make my life easier!

 

Thanks guys!!

[nighthawks]

was anyone from that unit in Base-to-base contact with the 'fex at the start of the combat round? if not, then you cannot attack it at all. only models in contact with or within 2" of a model in contact with a unit (in this case a single model, MC unit) can attack that unit. this is not the same as "strategic removal of casualties".

 

if you were able to attack it at the start of the round, though, swing away, and may the dice gods be with you.

[Wonderbraa]

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7366/76651217.jpg

 

Use your imaginations here, pretend they are all the right sized bases and they are in better base to base contact. None of its to scale, I was too lazy to load up photoshop and do a propper job of it =P

 

The blue ones are my tac marines that charged. One of them is cassius, i didnt think it would matter too much which one it was for the purpose of this. The fex is obviously the fex, the purple ones are the warriors, the yellow one is the gaunt and the red one is the remainder of the tactical squad that got charged by all those crazy bugs on the previous turn, which kept them locked in combat. During his attacks with the gaunt and the warriors (he goes first due to higher I) he kills the red marine. Then with my tacticals on the right they kill the gaunt and the warriors. As my tac marnes on the left were able to attack at the start of combat, do they get to strike at the fex or not?

[nurglez]

I would say no.

 

"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the begining of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

 

your left squad was only engaged with the warriors, and thus, could only attack them.

 

I agree that the rule book isnt that useful regarding some problems with multiple combats, but i feel it is rather clear on this.

[Wonderbraa]

i always took that to mean that units already locked in assault from a previous turn could only attack units they were originaly locked with, rather than the new threat that was rushing to meet them. But having thought about it a little more i can see what you mean.

 

If they are no longer able to attack, and they arnt in base to base, does that mean they are no longer in combat and can consolidate? or do i get to pile in instead?

[nurglez]

Pile in, as you are still in combat with the carni, you just couldnt reach it.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Do yourself a favor and read the assult pages in the big rule book, all of them, not just the parts you think are relivent,

 

 

however here is a quick and dirty.

only models engaged with an enemy unit can attack it.

Weather a model is engaged is determined before any attacks are actualy swung (think of it as I 11 if that helps)

 

 

your squad to the left is ONLY engaged with the wariors, their attacks can only go againt the wariors.

Your squad on the right is also only engaged with the wariors and their attacks can only hit the wariors (you would not be able to hit that guant, will explain later)

Your squad at the top is ONLY engaged with the Fex.

the Remander squad (which if I understand you is made up of that one singular marine that was killed) is engaged with the Fex, the guant, and the wariors.

The Fex is engaged with the squad at top and the remander squad

the guant is ONLY engaged with the remainder squad

The Wariors are engaged with the remander squad, your squad to the left, and squad to the right.

 

Again attacks can ONLY be made against units you are engaged with by models engaged with them.

 

 

Models are engaged IF

they are in base to base contact

or are within 2 inches of a model from their own unit in base to base contact

 

If a model is engaged to multiple units it may split its attacks however it wants but must declare which models are attacking what BEFORE rolling any to hits for that initive.

 

 

Quick edit: No you do not pile in, they were not in combat with the carnefex, as nothing in there unit was engaged with the carnifex at the start of the combat (assuming i was correct that the red guy who died was the only one in his unit)

[Oldenhaller]

in addition from what frosty has put....you've mentioned on a couple of occasins that the wounds "carried over onto the warriors and wiped them out"

 

Any attacks have to be made at the specific squad they are targetting. If there are spare wounds left over which have not been saved these do not get allocated to the other squads involved in the combat, they are assigned as you would with shooting to the models in the squad which was attacked.

 

thus using your example;

 

Something kills the red marrine, the left had squad targets the warriors as these are all they're in base to base with. they wipe out the warriors...the spare wounds don't go over to the gaunt. If the left squad was in BtB with both units then the attacks from models in BtB with each separate unit and any models within 2" of those in BtB are allocated to the squads they're in combat with.

 

If they wipe out their target the right hand squad has nothing to attack. not in BtB with the fex thus no attacks against it. The only models which can attack the fex are the single remnant marine and the 5 assaulting from the north.

 

Basically - each unit can only be targetted by a unit which has something in BtB with it. If they're not in BtB then no aattacks - all the other units in the combat do not constitute one big unit of the enemy and your squads do not constitute a single unit either.

 

hope this helps

 

~O

[Wonderbraa]

ah thank you very much, still have alot to learn it seems!

[Reglor]

Quick edit: No you do not pile in, they were not in combat with the carnefex, as nothing in there unit was engaged with the carnifex at the start of the combat (assuming i was correct that the red guy who died was the only one in his unit)

 

I don't think this is right. The way I read it is that after you figure out who survived the fight (and didn't run away) everyone who was involved in that combat piles in, even if the only units they were engaged with are killed or ran away.

[Trekari]

You pile-in only if the assault is continuing. If you have won your assault against an enemy unit (wiped them out completely), you get a consolidation move.

 

The rules are quite clear that you are NOT allowed to consolidate into an enemy unit.

[Morticon]

Quick edit: No you do not pile in, they were not in combat with the carnefex, as nothing in there unit was engaged with the carnifex at the start of the combat (assuming i was correct that the red guy who died was the only one in his unit)

 

I don't think this is right. The way I read it is that after you figure out who survived the fight (and didn't run away) everyone who was involved in that combat piles in, even if the only units they were engaged with are killed or ran away.

 

 

I was told otherwise as well Reglor. I was told (UK GT) that since it is all one combat they have to continue fighting/pile in to each other. I argued that the original unit was not in combat with the other unit (eg: in this case- the left marines not in combat with the Fex) so why should they pile in. I was told that by virtue of them being in close combat together via the other units, i could not.

 

Marines on the left are linked to the warriors in the middle who are linked to the marines on the right who are linked to the fex. Therefore they're all involved in the same combat. Even if a link is broken, they were at the start all linked which means theyd have to pile in.

[Morticon]

You pile-in only if the assault is continuing. If you have won your assault against an enemy unit (wiped them out completely), you get a consolidation move.

 

The rules are quite clear that you are NOT allowed to consolidate into an enemy unit.

 

Trekari, by the logic above the assault still is continuing. You were involved in a fight with an enemy your comrades were involved in a fight with as well as another enemy. That means you're still helping them, no?

[nurglez]

i stand by my orginal statement. I would say, as units are all joined together in a link like that, they will still have to all take a moral check if the only unit they were engaged with died but they lost the combat (ie, if the fex butchered 10 marines from another squad), signifying they are linked :D

 

and thus, must pile in.

[Trekari]

Just because you're in the same army doesn't make you part of an assault if someone from your own unit was not in base to base. The only unit you are allowed to direct attacks against is one your squad is in base to base with, somehow.

 

Once the only squad you are engaged with (locked in base-to-base contact with) is destroyed, you are no longer locked in combat and get a consolidation move.

 

Each unit behaves independently. It doesn't matter if Unit 2 is still locked in CC with a target. Unit 1's sole opponent was destroyed and if they aren't in BtB with another hostile unit, they can act on their own and let Unit 2 deal with its own problems, no matter how 'close' the assaults were to each other.

[SeattleDV8]

Not so Trekari. BRB pg. 41 "After assault resolution, all units that were involved in that multipe combat must make pile-in moves towards enemies that fought in that combat."

The example above was one combat, all units involved HAVE to pile -in.

[Seahawk]

DV8 gets it right again. The only way units involved in a multiple combat won't consolidate into each other is if, at the end of the combat, the nearest combatants are more than 12" away from each other somehow (MASSIVE slaughter, or strategic removal of casualties). Assault results are clear cut in da rules.

 

Same with who can attack who. Wonderbraa's opponent was right, that only the models from the squad in BTB with the carnifex could attack the fex. That's best explained in the little box at the bottom of page 41.

[Trekari]

This does not fall under the multiple assault rules.

 

The Tac squad was in CC against Warriors.

 

The combat squad was in CC against the Fex.

 

Neither of them were involved in any way, shape, or form with more than one unit or each others unit.

 

Read the opening line on pg. 41.

 

"Combats the involved more than 2 units..." You don't have that here. You have a 10-man Tac squad fighting one opponent, and a 5-man combat squad fighting another, separate opponent. Those are two distinct combats involving two units each. There is no overlap, and thus no "multiple assault." The example makes it clear they are referring to one unit locked in combat against more than one enemy unit.

[LPetersson]

There were 7 units involved. All 7 had to compare initiative to see who goes first, hence I would say it's one big combat and everyone piles in.

[Darth Caedus]

Read the opening line on pg. 41.

 

"Combats the involved more than 2 units..." You don't have that here. You have a 10-man Tac squad fighting one opponent, and a 5-man combat squad fighting another, separate opponent. Those are two distinct combats involving two units each. There is no overlap, and thus no "multiple assault." The example makes it clear they are referring to one unit locked in combat against more than one enemy unit.

Actually, all the Nids were locked with that single red marine IIRC, and so, that would make this a multiple combat, no? Now, the single marine died, but it was still a multiple combat at the beginning of the round, so then at the end of the round they would all pile in to avenge the death of their comrades, or whatever.

[Trekari]

I don't know how to make it any more clear than this:

 

You never pile-in towards anyone that your unit was not locked in BtB with at the start of the combat.

 

10-man Tac squad was locked in CC against ONLY the warriors. Those Warriors are dead, thus no pile-in - just consolidation.

 

5-man Combat squad was locked in CC against ONLY the Carnifex. That 5-man squad piles-in to the Carnifex if it is still alive.

 

Warriors were locked in CC against the Red Marine and the Tac squad. The warriors died. No pile-in.

 

Red Marine was locked in CC against the Warriors and Gaunt and the Fex. Red marine died. No pile-in.

 

Gaunt was locked in CC against the Red Marine. Red Marine died, Gaunt was not locked in with any other unit, Gaunt gets a Conslidation move. <---This is if the combat had been done correctly instead of applying wounds to the Gaunt from the 10-man squad which wasn't in BtB and thus could not have attacked it.

[SeattleDV8]

You never pile-in towards anyone that your unit was not locked in BtB with at the start of the combat.

Do you have a rules quote to back that up?

Because I have one that tells us it is not so.

BRB pg. 41 "After assault resolution, all units that were involved in that multipe combat must make pile-in moves towards enemies that fought in that combat."

As described this was a single combat (multiple style) because the red marine tied the fex to the warriors, the other marines being in combat with them.

[Trekari]

IF you want to ignore the rest of page 41, as well as the Pile-In rules on page 40, then by all means you can play the game that way if you wish.

 

You seem to misinterpret what constitutes a "multiple assault" situation. Re-read the Assault rules in the BRB, along with my previous post. The only marine unit that was in a "multiple combat" situation was the Red marine, and he died.

 

The only Tyranids which were in a multiple combat situation were the Warriors, who also died.

 

Done correctly, the Gaunt should've been alive, and the 10-man squad should've been granted a consolidation move. The Fex and 5-man combat squad would still be locked in CC.

[Reglor]

IF you want to ignore the rest of page 41, as well as the Pile-In rules on page 40, then by all means you can play the game that way if you wish.

 

You seem to misinterpret what constitutes a "multiple assault" situation. Re-read the Assault rules in the BRB, along with my previous post. The only marine unit that was in a "multiple combat" situation was the Red marine, and he died.

 

The only Tyranids which were in a multiple combat situation were the Warriors, who also died.

 

Done correctly, the Gaunt should've been alive, and the 10-man squad should've been granted a consolidation move. The Fex and 5-man combat squad would still be locked in CC.

 

Are you saying that the units were not involved in one combat here. A combat is either a multiple combat or it is not, you can't say that it is a multiple combat for some units and not for others.

[Trekari]

It seems many of you are overlooking the basic Assault rules when trying to argue this.

 

From the Tyranid perspective, here is the assault situation:

 

Warriors: multiple combat against 10-man squad and red marine.

Gaunt: Single combat against red marine.

Carnifex: Multiple combat against 5-man squad and Red Marine.

 

Now, the red marine DIED. Figure out what to do.

 

Warriors only remaining opponent would be 10-man squad.

Gaunt is no longer locked in CC.

Carnifex only remaining opponent is 5-man squad.

 

From the Marine perspective:

10-man squad: Single combat against Warriors.

Red Marine: Multiple combat against Gaunt and Warriors and Fex. (sad day for him...)

5-man squad: Single combat against the Carnifex.

 

Each assault is resolved independently. Read the %#(*@% assault rules!

 

End result (assuming SM's turn):

 

Gaunt's only opponent that they were locked in CC against was the Red Marine, who died. Thus the Gaunt gets a consolidation move.

Warriors were exterminated. They were the only CC opponent with the 10-man squad. Thus the 10-man squad gets a consolidation move.

Carnifex and 5-man squad still locked in CC. Pile-in SM models (from the 5-man squad ONLY) to get more into BtB with the Fex.

 

Some of you seem to believe that if Unit A is locked into combat with X, and Unit B is locked into combat with X and Y, that A somehow gets to pile-in to Y. This is complete and utter horsecrap and unsupported by the rules in any way. Read the Assault rules.