Mudslinger Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Hey all, Long time Wolves lover...long time. I have been way into the fluff and minis since 3rd edition. I have actually never played vanilla Space Marines...ever. The Wolves idealogy, fluff, characters, attitude, and way of life is, in my humble opinion, a the pinnacle of all Space Marine fluff. I haven't played for a couple/three years now. Getting back into it. I just recently purchase the 5th edition space marine codex...and I was surprised by the way HQs work now. You can really, really change your entire force up and play quite differently just by choosing a different HQ with various combat tactics, abilities, etc. I like this idea very much. One can play extremely different ways. I can play an assaulty army, flanking army, shooty army, mechanzied army, etc just by the HQ. You can really tailor things and try something totally different. This brings me to my dilemma. The Wolves (in game play style - NOT in fluff) seem to be a bit static compared to vanillas now (I hope not forever). By static I don't mean nerfed (though the codex is a bit confusing within 5th in areas and you have to debate during games) or non competitive at all. What I mean is they are much harder to really "change up". Sure, you can create different lists that function differently. But being able to change up the they way are played entirely for tactical fun - as you can with just HQ choices with vanilla's now - is kind of a bummer. I love the wolves...but the variety in vanilla tactics is tugging at me (for tactical game play variability - not fluff - the Wolves will always rule here). What is a Wolves lover like me to do? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Take the 5th Edition Codex, look at it good and long, then toss it's rubbish out the window. Seriously I can understand if your transitioning from 3rd but the 5th Edition Codex DOES NOT offer significant diversity, not at least compared to the 4th Edition Codex. The 5th forces you to take unadjustable HQ's to modify the army list in any way and even then it's not a significant change of tactics or build that couldn't be done previously or can't be done just by switching what units your army uses primarily. The 4th Edition Codex had the trait system, where you could change up the army's structure and skills WITHOUT the need for some specific and expensive HQ choice, going so far as to make Assault Squads Elites, Bikes Troops, allow Tactical Marines to take Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons and more besides. You can barely do a fraction of that now with the 5th Edition Codex, many of the coolest and most unique styles are totally ruined. You can no longer take Close Combat Tactical Marines or Elite Assault Marines, Librarians and Chaplains suck now and are reduced to auxiliary support roles, you used to be able to upgrade Tactical Sergeants to Apothecaries and give squads special skills and abilities for a points cost and that's gone too. You used to actually be able to change the wargear and organisation of the army in multiple different ways and now the only character that does that is Kor'sarro or you could just take a Bike Captain. Most of the divergent army styles and structures are a thing of the past. The 5th Edition codex greatly reduced the versatility and variety of the Vanilla list in exchange for some new and powerfull wargear and weaponry that IMO isn't even good or necessary. The Space Wolf Codex may not allow you to take Bikes as Troops but why would you want to do that anyway with Space Wolves? If you don't play them as Wolves then they aren't really Wolves now are they? The Space Wolves have a distinct set of advantages and disadvantages, strengths and weaknesses but you can play the army in many different ways without the need for some silly HQ telling you how to do it. So like I said take the 5th Edition SM Codex and proverbially toss it out the window, Wolves do not need some HQ's special rules to tell them how to mix up their tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudslinger Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 If you don't play them as Wolves then they aren't really Wolves now are they? Good words...good words. It has been a long while since I played. So I should look closer like you said. I wonder if Wolves will be mainstreamed via Wolves HQs? Who knows... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Good words...good words. Thanks. It has been a long while since I played. So I should look closer like you said. I wonder if Wolves will be mainstreamed via Wolves HQs? Who knows... Maybe, maybe not. I certainly hope not, a lot of the newer SM Codexies lost a lot of their unique flavor, well by that I mean the Dark Angel's and Blood Angels. Those codexies set a precedent for streamlining and simplification however the 5th Edition Codex added new things and made the army more complicated with more special rules than ever and was totally a 180 degree reverse from the attitutde with the DA and BA Codexies so hopefully the Space Wolves will not be blandified but improved and keep their unique flavor. There are rumours that the Wulfen and maybe the 13th Company will get rolled into the new Codex, that would certainly add some diversity me thinks if it's true. Nevertheless as a supplementary codex we benefit from most of the new wargear and units anyway. We can take Ironclad Dreads, and Land Raider Redeemers, our Storm Shields grant a 3+ save and our Cyclone Launchers are Heavy 2, we get most of the advantages without any of the disadvantages, yet another reason to keep using the old dex I think even if it's over a decade old. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 i agree with vash completly. another thing too, is the versatility of the basic units you get. seriously, how many armies can get more attacks when charged, and who can take up 3 power weapons a unit (4 for blood claws) including sergeant. it sounds kinda dumb, but if you really look at the codex, space wolves haven't needed to be changed in these long years. heck, they don't really need it now. yeah it would be cool to have 6 dreads, but you can take 4 without seriously damaging your units (i.e. loosing the wolf guard). and then there is how our units stack up to the vanilla equivalent. our scouts are MUCH better, our terminators are more versitile than deathwing, our bikes can get more upgrades, and much cooler ones, we get the same dreads and land raiders, our techmarine is almost better than the master of the forge, with more options (i say almost because the conversion beam is cool...). add that to the fact that we get more cool stuff, like counter charge, and it really seems like a no brainer. sure we don't have as many heavy weapons, but we don't need them. we can outnumber vanilla marines, and chew them up in combat. anywolf i hope this helps some. cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Very wise words from brother Vash there but I do hope that 13th Company don't end up being shoe-horned into the normal list... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Fenrir Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 You will find that the 13th company list will disappear, vanish, be wiped from the slate. Better start getting used to it, 'cos they aren't going to be about. I'm not enamoured of the idea, but they (13th Co) aren't being updated in any way and the EoT list is to be retired. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bareserker Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 PATIENCE ! My Liebschun ! dont get lured by the BLUE side ! A new codex IS COMING at the end of the year. I cant tell you any details but it IS coming. GOD bless ..........................V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 You will find that the 13th company list will disappear, vanish, be wiped from the slate. Better start getting used to it, 'cos they aren't going to be about. I'm not enamoured of the idea, but they (13th Co) aren't being updated in any way and the EoT list is to be retired. and of course all based, no doubt, on a conversation with someone who knew someonelse's nephew who chatted to a guy who was in the same bus queue as a lad who was on a forum with the friend of the son of a cleaner who found some faded and barely legible scribblings on a scrap of paper on the floor of GW Richmond after it was closed down :angry: :D :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Fenrir Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 You will find that the 13th company list will disappear, vanish, be wiped from the slate. Better start getting used to it, 'cos they aren't going to be about. I'm not enamoured of the idea, but they (13th Co) aren't being updated in any way and the EoT list is to be retired. and of course all based, no doubt, on a conversation with someone who knew someonelse's nephew who chatted to a guy who was in the same bus queue as a lad who was on a forum with the friend of the son of a cleaner who found some faded and barely legible scribblings on a scrap of paper on the floor of GW Richmond after it was closed down :lol: :P :lol: No actually. I have from an undisputable source (and old friend). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bareserker Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Wolves are coming at the end of the year,( based on a covert chat with senior G.W.managment.) As a long time WOLF fanatic I hate the rumour mill as much as the next devoted WOLF ! I wouldnt get my fellow WOLF pack wound up on false rumours or cruel fantasies ! Finaly as an over 40, long time veteran you can trust what I am telling you is NOT bull ! GOD bless ...................V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 No actually. I have from an undisputable source (and old friend). Whilst suspecting that you will consider your source to be sensitive, this still rates as F6 unless further detail can be provided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I told all of you before, Jervis personally called me and said Space Wolves are coming out in 2009 but don't tell anyone... ahem..... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bareserker Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 G.W. works on the same principle as organised crime! They will have moles on this site (and I dont mean the small blind furry type).and if I divulged my source he could end up taking a swim with concrete overalls on ! All I will say is that come OCT/ NOV, I will be very tempted to post an "I told you so post ". Although G.W. staff are sworn to secrecy at the end of the day lets be really honest about the subject matter here. Its NOT a matter of national security, its IMPOSSIBLE for another company to rip them off and last but not least any senior executive worth his salt will tell you any company who corners the market for SPACE MARINES/WOLVES LIKE G.W. does ,finds pre arranged INFO/LEAKS are a marvellous way to advertise without spending a penny.All it does is wet the punters appetite even more ! GOD bless .......................V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1896930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well said baresrker...or should we call you Phil Kelly?????? lol :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1897078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Yes, the Wolves will return. It'll be Autumn, not sure exactly when though. Don't ask, I'm not telling just trust me. I have a couple of sources on this one. Back to the original point. There is only really one army build where Marines have a solid advantage over Wolves - the gun line, as they can take Heavy Weapons and suchforth far more easily. Everywhere else - Wolves are better. Mechanised and Pod Builds are designed to focus on rapidly closing with the enemy. That means that at some point, an Assault will come. Point for point, Wolves are better in Assault than any other Marine force. Furthermore, with Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard in TDA we don't have to skimp on shooting - particularly in the 12"-28" range. We still pack a punch there. So basically, if you want a shooty force, play Guard. Assualty - Nids, Daemons, Orks. All rounders. Us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1897168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 On another note entirely I for one am getting very tired of "It's coming but I can't say anything" stuff. If ya can't say anything why doesn't everyone just not say anything? For all our sanities this whisper, whisper stuff is maddening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1897196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I with you on that one, brother :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1897230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
barek Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Same here! :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1897320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1000 Yard Stair Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Honestly, up until the 5th Ed Marine codex came out i was seriously concerned about our new codex. After GW took the BA's and DA's out in the alley and beat the flavor outta them with brass bland knuckles, i was like, uh oh, please don't update our codex ever. While i am not at all a fan of GW's newly adopted device of having to take static geared, named, character HQ's to "trait" out your army. I can at least grudgingly accept it for the ability to bring some sort of uniqueness to my army. I completely expect this dynamic to continue with our upcoming dex. 13th Company (my preferred army list) is almost certainly gone as a stand alone list and will (hopefully) be included in the new dex through this dynamic. Amusingly enough our current dex (and 13th Co) and it's interaction with the current marine dex (and the 5th ed ruleset) is actually pretty sweet. Too sweet i fear. Hopefully our new dex is too far along for GW to change (nerf) it based on all the cries of wolves being too overpowered right now (is anyone else hearing this as loudly as i am?). Right now we have a lot of options for customization and individuality and i just wonder what we will be losing with our new dex. I really want our new dex to come out mostly just so i'll know what i can add/convert to my forces and what not to waste my time and money on. Overall i'm not exactly eager for our new dex but i no longer think i'm going to be really angry as i once was for what it may or may not include. Whatever, my beers are all still cold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1897446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 What I think is that Ive repeatedly thrashed the new SM codex in CC with my grey hunters and suprised the hell out of a number of players who thought they knew everything that power armor could do. Guys who play strait vanilla codex seem to get caught up in it... and forget the other options. In fact, with one notable exception everyone I know who uses the word cheese more than once a year outside of meals plays a vanilla chapter of space marines. :lol: The other plays chaos. Overall I think its a good book. My only real problem with it lies in the lack of faqqing things over for BT and DA and BA. Its sad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1898168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Lord Fenrir Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I haven't actually said that "I know lots, but have to keep it hush hush" or that I'm GW staff (I work in architecture, incidentally). People here seem to jump on you as soon as you open yer mouth about something (reminds me why I stopped coming over here. Can't be bothered with it to be honest). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1898337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I haven't actually said that "I know lots, but have to keep it hush hush" or that I'm GW staff (I work in architecture, incidentally). People here seem to jump on you as soon as you open yer mouth about something (reminds me why I stopped coming over here. Can't be bothered with it to be honest). The thing is brother, people will "jump on you" if you make blanket statements that you cannot back up, be it here or anywhere else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1898398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I haven't actually said that "I know lots, but have to keep it hush hush" or that I'm GW staff (I work in architecture, incidentally). People here seem to jump on you as soon as you open yer mouth about something (reminds me why I stopped coming over here. Can't be bothered with it to be honest). Hey brother, stay with us. The thrice accursed Thousand Son's are obviously working some warp-chaos to bring out the wulfen in us when we talk of the codex! :D Stay with us! Jonny Wolf Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1898449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
barek Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Stay with us! Yep! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161488-wolves-and-new-space-marine-codex/#findComment-1898456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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