Aidoneus Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 My friend has recently started playing a Space Marine list with a bike-mounted Captain, 2 Vindicators, a couple Typhoons, and lots of Bikers. We usually play anywhere from 1500-2000pts. You'll all be happy to hear that my Grey Knights can't keep up, so I've decided to give my ol' Chaos boys a chance. I have at least one of nearly everything that isn't Nurgle, so feel free to recommend anything. I was thinking a duo of Slaanesh Princes to push those bikers where I want 'em. Perhaps some high-strength, low-ap blasts to go along with the lashes, and to get around their toughness 5. I've got one defiler, one vindicator, and 4 oblits to potentially use. For Troops, I usually like a couple Berzerker squads in Rhinos. I do have a squad of Thousand Sons, but I'm not sure if those S4 guns are really gonna do all that much good. Of course I have regular marines too, with any and all special/heavy weapons you might think of (old Iron Warriors player am I), but I don't like the new rules for basic CSMs. I also have things like raptors, bikers, possessed, terminators, etc. Any recommendations welcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Blackbone Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I am pleased to tell you that SM bikes are one thing we definately won't have trouble with! Obliterators, Defilers, Vindicators, Daemon Princes, Dreads .. all will crush them. - Blackbone Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm also a bit confused as to how you have trouble with bikes, they are pretty expensive and considering the amount of high str low ap shooting and power weapons chaos can have they really aren't a big deal. Take plasma guns in your squads, and a few obliterators and you should be fine, if anything those vindicators seem like the bigger threat due to how expensive most of our units are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm also a bit confused as to how you have trouble with bikes, they are pretty expensive and considering the amount of high str low ap shooting and power weapons chaos can have they really aren't a big deal. I think you may have missed the part where I said I was having trouble using my Grey Knights. Unlike Chaos, they have a distinct lack of high-strength, low-ap weapons. I can usually maneuver around opponents with them, but obviously that doesn't work with bikers. And when a T5 biker costs the same as my T4 grey knights, I have some difficulties. I am glad to hear that Chaos should work better for me. Any specific recommendations? I think I can't go wrong with my heavy support, and 2 lash princes are always fun. I'm looking for suggestions on Elites, Fast Attack, and most importantly Troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 yep, lash/oblits/fist+plasma on pgs work great against a pure biker force , specially if he doesnt use ironclad dreads in drop pods and no khan/librarian . but thats almost list tailoring . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well the fact that bikes are hard to catch in melee with transports that are not land raiders (they have a habbit of running) which holds their downfall primary in check. Given that they can be numerous (10 points above a normal chaos marine for speed, toughness and range+move guns), it makes them harsh in a way. In fact, I have considered re-doing my tactics for my slaanesh set aside for a marine bike force of similar stature. Noisemarine or bike, both cost the same (sonic). So, the main thing is that bikes are basicly a marine with higher toughness in melee. He's paying out the rear for a marine with 1 attack and toughness 5 when caught, and if you have initiative 5 running may not be the ideal situation for him. Icon of slaanesh Raptors will catch him and set him in a BAD spot for both his combat tactics and speed advantage, forcing him to turbo boost to get away and potentially slow down his volleys of fire. Even corner him. Aside from that, small units of teleporting terminators are a surprise that narrows his options and runaway locations. Obliterators, Vindicators, both are bad ideas against a bike army. Once he's in range, he'll have great cover saves and most likely meltas to deal with them. Though if you DO use them, and keep them guarded, they would be great bait for his itchy melta trigger finger. You can abuse that, and he doesnt have room to fail whole units of spendy bikes. He spends as much for 7 bikes (175) as he would for 10 marines (170) so three less attacks and higher toughness. Something fast to catch him, and tie him into a melee combat he cant win or get ranged combat that is superior and lure him in for a unit to charge him because his anti hard-stuff is lacking. If he is a rare melee bike fella, and I do stress the word rare, try to kill his HQ's ASAP or face being flanked and chewed up. If he plays the stayway game them pop his hard shooting stuff if you can so he has to deal with killing you slowly and more room to make mistakes. Bike armies are hard. I used to bike-bomb all the way from 3rd edition. Their weaknesses are magnified because of lacking numbers and relying on speed. However, they need 24" range for effective use, and if you pack three units of 20 marines with an icon of nurgle (i know I KNOW) then you have the same melee advantage and range advantage he gets, and you COMPLETELY ruin his speed advantage. More guns and bodies for the same toughness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Lash & Bash him. If you like the Idea of two daemon princes give them MoS, Lash of Submission and Wings and watch as his bikes start dancing to your tune. You can then bring his units into assault range (Fastest units being Raptors or Bikers, whatever you like), or you can bundle them up and drop s10 AP1(or 2?) pie on them. Hell defilers AP3 Pie is good enough. I'm also thinking Noise Marines would be pretty good with a squad leader armed with a Doom Siren and a Blast Master in (anything else is a bonus), this if it hits on stationary fire mode will kill pretty much everything you have listed, hell it could even pop the vindicator Two Flying Lash Princes, A possessed Vindicator, Defiler and a Unit of 3 Oblits is in the region of 850pts leaving 650pts spare (or 1,150) So with this you could do with troops or fast attack... I would really be tempted with some noise marines... maybe in rhinos with a doom siren... rock up next to the bike squad stay in or get out and fire the champions doom siren on a unit of bikes next to you... which you may have lashed into position so you can hit them all with the template ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Obliterators, Vindicators, both are bad ideas against a bike army. Once he's in range, he'll have great cover saves and most likely meltas to deal with them. ?? but you deep strike the oblits with 3x3 termi plasma squads . land units are 3 rhino pms squads with pms and 2 lash prince . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1896565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Thanks for the advice guys. While I'm not a fan of chaos FA in close combat roles, and I don't own plague marines, everything else sounds good. I've written up a trial list, and I would love some comments and tips. Thanks! Daemon Prince: Slaanesh, Lash, Wings Daemon Prince: Slaanesh, Lash, Wings :) Dreadnought: Plasma Cannon, Heavy Flamer :angry: 10 Berzerkers: Champ (power fist) -Rhino: 10 Berzerkers: Champ (power weapon) -Rhino: 8 Thousand Sons: Sorcerer (doombolt) -Rhino: 4 Bikers: 2 Meltaguns Dreadspeeder: (linky: note, outside of Apocalypse it has no ranged weapons) Vindicator: Defiler: 2 Oblits: Total: 1998pts, 43 models, 46.465 pts/model, 3 Scoring, 14 KP It is a little high in KP due to my transports, but not outrageously so, so hopefully I won't be hurt too badly in Annihilation. At any rate, I should have enough raw killing power to make up for it. I had to drop daemoning possession from my Vindicator, which I don't like, but unless I drop something I'll have to live with that. I'm also somewhat lower than I prefer on anti-tank, but I've got enough stuff that can down tanks in close combat that hopefully it wont be too much of a problem. Any suggestions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1898699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 No dread. Switch the 1K sons for CSMs. Switch bikes for 5x naked Raptors, 2 MG. Either 2 Vindis or 2 Defilers. Vindis need Possession. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1898712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 No dread.Switch the 1K sons for CSMs. Switch bikes for 5x naked Raptors, 2 MG. Either 2 Vindis or 2 Defilers. Vindis need Possession. In response to all your suggestions: why? I'm not arguing with you; I just want to know your reasoning. For the 2 vindis or 2 defilers: I can't. I only have 1 of each. I'd still like to know your reason for recommending it though, along with your reasons for the other points, just because I'm curious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1898740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsPug Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Hi Posted a similiar tactic in another topic but the lash really hurts bikes, put a unit into difficult terrain, because they're bikes its dangerous, they'll lose 1/6th on average going in and 1/6th the next turn when they come out. toughness/armour doesn't even make a difference. The blast of the Vindicator will destroy anything it touches and now that even partials count...ouch! Though I'd take defileres over vindicators, stripped down to just four claws and fleet they can move quick enough to catch bikes (remember fleet isn't slowed by terrain) and are really hard to get rid of in CC cause you have to hit the front armour and strength 10 DCCW's eat bikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1898768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 The lash will help greatly for both the sons and zerks, its a sound plan. Though I may make one side step of the current list you post. Put Wind of Chaos on the sorcerer, since you lash the bikes already that template poison high AP thing will definately ruin the bikes. Potentially dragging the kill ratio for the unit drasticly! Just a small observation though. I agree raptors over bikes, though turbo boost is awesome you need spare bodies to bog them down while facing power weapons, since you prefer to catch them and/or melt something during the game with them. I have another small tip, if you care to try it. Take out 1 bike and toss in a single spawn. They can tie up the bikes temporarily and its a nice side option for a bogdown tactic for the rhino zerks to get into position. If you want to spare the points, combi-flamers on the rhinos would be awesome, the whole lash thing can be devistating with any area effect weapon. The rhinos could even kill their own worth in one volley~. Hope you do well, and dont be shy about using that sorcerers force weapon! If you can get it in there, use it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1898863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Dread is random and bad. 2 PC shots, probably at you, once per game? I don't like it. Thousand Sons are pricey, and a CSM squad with special weaps does better overall. The Raptors are easier to hide and cheaper. Multiplicity of indentical targets helps the survivability of all of them. Defiler and Vindi have different threat ranges, IMO Vindis should be hit with long range fire, Defilers with melta. Possession is a must. If the Vindi can't shoot for one turn that it's in range, that is really bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1899898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Okay, made some changes based on comments. Dropped the Dread in favor of a third Oblit; gave the Asp Sorcerer Wind; put D Possession on the Vindi; and swapped bikers for raptors. Any other suggestions? Daemon Prince: Slaanesh, Lash, Wings Daemon Prince: Slaanesh, Lash, Wings :D 10 Berzerkers: Champ (power fist) -Rhino: 10 Berzerkers: Champ (power weapon) -Rhino: 8 Thousand Sons: Sorcerer (wind of chaos) -Rhino: ;) 6 Raptors: 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory Dreadspeeder: (linky: note, outside of Apocalypse it has no ranged weapons) ;) Vindicator: Daemonic Possession Defiler: 3 Oblits: Total: 2001pts, 45 models, 44.467 pts/model, 3 Scoring, 13 KP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1902984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 It's been a while. Does no one have anything to say about my revised list? Or can assume you all think it's perfect as it is? :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161493-need-help-defeating-spacie-bikers/#findComment-1911602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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