Anyone run dedicated decoys/lures?

[tedwin183]

I am considering buying a 5 man squad of scouts with all bolters and running either a ML or HB in with them. I'd probably infiltrate with them, and then scout move before the first turn...and then be within rapid fire range and still be able to fire the HB...probably from some terrain. I figure this would be useful for 2 reasons. 1.) It's a nuisance with the 2+ template and 8 bolter rounds a turn 2.) it could possibly be used to contest objectives. I think the opponent would have to weigh wasting fire at a relatively "unimportant squad", as they'd deem it, charge at it, or ignore it. If either of the first two are chosen, I either get him out of balance or I get some fire taken off my tac squads. If he leaves it be, I have a 2+ template at my disposal every turn. Anyone have any experiences with this?

[maturin]

I tried something similar last game I played, and learned a very important lesson which I shall pass on to you. ;)

 

Yes, your opponent will fire at your scouts and most likely wipe them out, even with cover saves. But are you really taking any fire off of your tac squads or shaking your opponent? Usually not, as basic trooper weapons usually don't have the range to start shooting your opponent on turn 1. Essentially what you're doing is moving a squad INTO rapid fire range of the enemy, and giving them a free round of shooting at your unit. Unless you're very careful with where you infiltrate (and in this situation your infiltration will be largely dictated by terrain, NOT by your tactics), the danger to your scouts is immense, and the benefit is minimal. Once they clean up your scouts they'll proceed to take on the rest of your army, likely with minimal disruption to their original plan.

[Rythlan]

I usually run a simmilar squad, but with Snipes and sometimes Tal. My experience is pretty much as Maturin describes, they shoot for a turn then one of my enemies units break off and whipe them out (usually CC in my experience). It distracts one squad for one turn, and then im short a scoring unit. Not sure if I like it or not.

 

I need to learn to play them back and shoot with long range, but I'm too stubborn and like to get too close too often for no good reason.

[Hymirl]

Its not a bad idea, but if you're using a unit for distraction purposes you need to use them for that, not suicide attacking. If you get into cover with a nice fire lane at just within 24" range they can start chipping away and be annoyingly hard to kill. If its a quarters game you can require them to go a long way in the wrong direction with something to mop them up.

 

Normally a missile launcher is a better buy as you can pop vehicles in the side armour and that gets much more irritating than a few bolter capping a guy or two.

 

Its similar to the main use for Exorcists in Sister of Battle armies - okay, apart from the missiles - is that they are sufficiently annoying that any firepower used on them isn't stopping fully loaded rhinos of girls getting into point blank range.

[Reinholt]

A couple of thoughts:

 

1 - A genuinely good decoy is going to have three qualities

 

- Cheap

- Impossible to avoid dealing with

- Durable

 

2 - You never, if possible, want to be allowing an opponent to wipe out a decoy unit with weapons they wouldn't be using otherwise; I don't like decoys that can be wiped out early with short range firepower because those are guns that would otherwise be silent, not guns that would otherwise be on your other troops, unless your army is either based around getting to grips almost immediately or a drop pod assault. In that case, you are in their face early, so it works.

 

 

Thus, I'm not really a huge fan of the scouts as the unit except in contexts where you are already up close and personal, and then, to a point, the enemy is under no obligation to shoot at them as they will have other targets in their face. In terms of decoy units, I use a dirt cheap predator myself (70 points for the Autocannon + Storm Bolter); it's essentially a 70 point rolling armor 13 wall to screen other things in my army, so either my foe has to take pot shots at a cheap and durable tank, or at the very least I have units getting cover saves behind it or vehicles that count as obscured.

 

I have yet to regret taking that in any game.

[tedwin183]

So perhaps a better option might be to take 5 scouts with bolters and maybe camo cloaks? Get them in a ruin just inside of 24" and give them either a HB or ML and just let them be annoying? That's 100 points for 5 3+ cover save, 4 bolter round (with a ML or Hellfire round) squad. Maybe i'll proxy some guys and see how it works.

[maturin]

Sniper scouts with ML would probably be more effective in your envisioned role. It lets them safely harass from out of range of basic weapons. Now your opponent must decide if he wants to divert long-range (and more valuable) firepower toward your decoys, or send a unit chasing after them. And they aren't any more expensive. You have MUCH more flexibility in deciding where to infiltrate them, as often you won't find a suitable piece of terrain 18-24" away from the enemy. 18-36" gives you a LOT more options.

[Mr Peon]

I ran a scout army with 5 squads of 5 scouts for a comp, it worked out pretty well. 3 setup as snipers 2 cc ones in storms. The scout movement was pretty good for the storms, and got me right in the face of the enemy quickly. A few times I had them upclose to the enemy, and with some lucky rolling they took alot of fire before they went down, certainly more than 75 points worth, giving me time to get the rest of the army up the table.

 

but both of these ideas is greatly increased by a) going first and ^_^ not coming up against a drop army, or a strong cc army. Either way you will be wiped out too quickly to count.

[tedwin183]

So if that's the case, when is it useful to take a squad, 5 or 10, of boltgun scouts? I foresee them as being either snipers or cc/outflankers.

[Mr Peon]

only time I would put a boltgun on a scout would be a sergent, but then again a shotgun would be better in most cases (unless you want the AP5).

 

Only other time is if you wanted a mobile scout squad that did not want to get into CC, but I cant see the point in that.

[tedwin183]

Well, I'm glad I didn't buy another squad of regular scouts. I may very well buy another box of sniper though. I think a 10-man strong squad of scout snipers all with camo cloaks would probably be pretty nice.

[eyescrossed]

It sounds insane, but I use a 5 man Nurgle or Tzeentch Possessed squad as an anti-lure - opponents see them as a "HOLYCRAP!!!" squad, so try to move away from them.

[Captain Idaho]

I go the other way when it comes to a distraction for opponents. As many of you may know I have a fetish for Honour Guard since 4th edition and use them aggressively. In 5th edition they are even more powerful as Relic blades are so much better than power weapons (but I only take Relic blades on the Champion and Master, to save points).

 

I use them to threaten opponents units. A unit of Honour Guard in a Landraider about 12" away from opponents means the unit will be able to charge next next turn even if you move 6" away.

 

Opponents have to make a very real choice on how they deal with the unit; should they let it hit home and concentrate on hitting your other units, do they try and minimise the damage by spreading units out, do they mount up transports and get away, do they try and wipe the unit out with firepower before your next turn or should they allow the attack to hit home and set up a counter strike in for their next turn?

 

The more choices your opponent makes the more likely the one he makes will be the wrong one. Increase his variables and his game plan will end up in tatters and you will have the advantage.

 

So my vote is use powerful units as decoys and lures but not sacrificial lambs. Use them as threats where either choice damns your opponent. Space Marines are too expensive to have cheap fodder units like other armies, and placing a cheap Scout unit in harms way (for example) will rarely be benefitial to you. While it is tempting to sacrifice a Tactical unit to lure, say, an Ork Nob and Warboss unit to destruction, it is not the benefit you may consider.

 

Comparing points values it may appear that you have lost less than your opponent, but that does not take into account the fact the rest of the Ork army is hideously cheap and will still be a threat to the rest of your army. Your Tactical squad could represent a large portion of your infantry for example.

[DerekLee688]

Just throwing an idea out there, artillery. A thunderfire cannon placed in a corner of the board may draw away units in an attempt to kill it. 100pts. is kinda cheap, maybie two of them. If you place them in a corner(still making maximum use of their range) you control where they advance. They'll either go after them or avoid them. If not you still get full effect of their 4-8 templates.

[jeffersonian000]

I use a unit as a decoy; however, I use a really heavy unit or two, with a lot of heavy fire power and great armor. Why? Because it's a real threat that will either tarpit a portion of my opponents forces or eliminate those forces out right if not dealt with. I like to use tanks or firebase units for this purpose, while the rest of my forces isolated and destroy chunks of the enemy.

 

As I see it, if my opponent is dealing with that threat, his firepower will be spread too thin to deal with the rest of my army. And if he ignores that threat, I will be able to fire into his forces with impunity.

 

SJ

[foster]

IMO a dreadnought is the perfect decoy as they have decent firepower and durability, no basic firepower can take this bad boy out and they can be tooled out for any role. For 150pts for a basic dread and drop-pod it may be abit steep on the points compared to a scout squad especially when adding upgrades, but it's well worth it for what the unit does; I plan to use a basic dreadnought with drop-pod to at least threaten stand and shoot vehicles that can do serious damage to my force if left unchecked. If the dreadnought doesn't at least shake them with it's multi-melta hopefully the next turn will have the vehicle move away thus rendering them not able to shoot at all or shoot with a full compliment of weapons for that turn.

 

Since there is a dreadnought near or in my opponants deployment zone hopefully my opponant will use some of his precious anti-tank weapons to kill it, or use some of his elites units to kill it in combat (terminators, Nob bikers with power claws etc.) distrating them from my main force. If he decides to ignore it then the dreadnought will go ape sh:t in his lines.

 

The only role this dreadnought has is to stop an especially deadly tank from firing for one turn. To be more specific I want to stop a Battle Wagon with a Kill-cannon, Lootas and a Mec with Shokk attack gun from shooting. All I can think of is that a dreadnought will keep it distracted.

[General Retreat]

You might give some thought to using them to Outflank, instead of setting up with the rest of the army. Outfitted as bolter boys, or as CC scouts, you can cause all sorts of trouble coming in late in the game to harass firebase units. Don't forget the Sargent can be equipped much like a Tac Sarge, with anything from a Powerweapon to Meltabombs to the time honored Combi-Melta/Powerfist. Many a "safe" whirlwind or basilisk has been sent to rejoin the Omnissiah thanks to that little trick.

[Mr Peon]

I find outflank not that wonderful a ability. sure you cant scatter like deep strike, but for scouts a infiltrate and scout move should be able to get you within 12" of most of your targets, and then a quick charge on the first turn should mean you can either assault or shot at something soft pretty quick, rather than maybe having that thing shoot you for upto 5 turns before you take it out at the end. But I guess that depends if you have the first attack or not or if you can get in some cover on the way up. If you use storms the 24" scout move giving you a cover save on the first turn if they have the init is none too bad either.

[Wanderer787]

My decoy unit as of late has been my dreadnaught. No matter where he goes, he's a fire magnet, which can help me get other squads into position. I may have to try out foster's drop-pod tactic, though. My Tau friend would absolutely hate that. :)

[foster]

My decoy unit as of late has been my dreadnaught. No matter where he goes, he's a fire magnet, which can help me get other squads into position. I may have to try out foster's drop-pod tactic, though. My Tau friend would absolutely hate that.

 

It's more of a hit or miss tactic which I usually back up with a couple of MM attack bikes, though with them I don't have the advantage to shoot the side or rear armour on the battle wagon. It's difficult for the bikes sometimes when there's a few hordes of Orks between the target wagon and the bikes.

Anyway it should make a good distraction that no opponant can ignore especially when a dreadnought lands in a Fire Warrier gunline, well for most armies it is (bloody elder). Against armies with lots of anti-tank weapons you'll find that the dreadnought will not last, but thats what we want anyway to protect the rest of your force.

 

Against Tau's that you know will bring those Broard firing thingys you may want to switch the dreadnought for sternguard with lots of combi-meltas, they work a treat. If you take 10 of them you can combat squad them to target other nearby armour too. Expensive but one hell of a distraction.

 

If you want to make a distraction try not to go for the cheapest single unit, sometimes it's best to go full out.

[Brother Tual]

hmm - scouts as distractions - or just distractions?

 

A distraction is a ploy - all ploys work or fail due to the reaction of your opponent - everyone knows this - but without sounding too much like yoda - you have to judge the calibre of your opponent before you decide on what to use as a distraction - so - to scouts as distractions - Australia says No - any decent opponent will ignore them or destroy them without a second thought - their destruction will be effortless or even beneficial (you might inadvertantly leap-frog one of my units to a better postion.. like the terrain that you are in!) or they will ignore it and your decoy is simply a genuie waste of points or simply deny it, my Godhammer landraider is parked infront of your scouts and you have NO LOS to anything else in range... shoot at the landraider! wooo - whilst my godhammers pound away at your soft spots.. its simple to deny/ignore/destroy one off units that have no real value or potential - you are simply wasting points - YOU have to make your opponent belive that your feint is genuine and the deadly blow to his army, scouts simply dont scare people -

 

Something else to consider when using ploys in general - is what do YOU want to get from it? how are YOU going to captialise on it NOW? there is no point in having a distraction if it provides no benefit to yourself - I run twin ironclads in pods with a landraider full of smash your face in troops - (ironclads have meltaguns see... perfect AT weapons) There is a direct benefit here for me - I have forced YOU to make choices and thus be open to making mistakes - How do you deal with such a deadly armour 'rush' that will break you next turn? do you split firepower and try to destroy all three? do you move away and try and deny my through speed? do you bite the bullet and rush one and hope the others stuff up? Which one do you pick? Which one is my attack? which one is a ploy? what do you do? all of these are open in some way for me to take advantage of directly next turn - a ploy has to MAKE your opponent deal with it, not give him a choice, and secondly, it has to open your opponent up directly to imminent attack -

 

I wrote stuff about this in my tactica - link - I called the relevant strategy "create something from nothing"

[Captain Malachi]

A lot of daemon players run a unit of 3 flamers to drop, do some damage and then die. Most of them don't think about the effect it has on the rest of their own army, but it does draw some fire away. Those flamers have to die, or they'll kill a lot more troops, and while it doesn't take a whole squad to kill them, you have to use a whole squad to do so. Not something a marine player can do obviously, but my point is that if you run a distraction they have to be their at the same time as your main force, and they have to be scary.

[rat of vengence]

I find outflank not that wonderful a ability. sure you cant scatter like deep strike, but for scouts a infiltrate and scout move should be able to get you within 12" of most of your targets, and then a quick charge on the first turn should mean you can either assault or shot at something soft pretty quick, rather than maybe having that thing shoot you for upto 5 turns before you take it out at the end. But I guess that depends if you have the first attack or not or if you can get in some cover on the way up. If you use storms the 24" scout move giving you a cover save on the first turn if they have the init is none too bad either.

Outflank and 8 ccw scouts, serg with powerfist work really well for me most of the time. Anyone trying a 1st turn rapid-fire or charge wont distract the opponent long, because they will be dead. But wondering which flank, and when, the scouts will show up and take on a base unit, rear armour a tank, or even just grab an objective makes the opponent think about what might happen.

 

And that is good, it makes him divert forces to cover options. ;)

 

Of course, occasionally they turn up on a useless flank, or just die horribly, but I think I have gotten plenty of value out of this tactic.

 

RoV