Striking Scorpion Exarch

[Kairos]

Hi all, been a while since I was last on.

 

I have a rules question - will a Striking Scorpion Exarch with Chainsword and Scorpion's Claw be Str7?

[eyescrossed]

Hmm... What's the wording of the Scorpion Chainsword again? I don't have my codex here at the moment.

[Seahawk]

It was in 4th edition, as you double the strength before adding the +1. It was clearly in the section supposedly copy and pasted to the 5th edition book. However, because of the formatting, they took out that part and stuck it on page 7.

 

Reason for edit: Thanks, DV8!

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg 7 Mulitiple Modifiers ".....first multipy the basic value and then add the extra points."

So it is still ST 7 not 8.

[Legatus]

Why would you think a Striking Scorpion could combine the effects of two different close combat weapons?

[bystrom]

As Legatus said, isn't the +1 S modifier coupled with using the Scorpion Chainsword (as opposed to giving the bearer a 'permanent' S boost), meaning that its only S6 with the power fist?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

No, you always get all of the bonuses and penalties of all your CCWs.

[JamesI]

No, you always get all of the bonuses and penalties of all your CCWs.

So a character with a power weapon and a fist fights at double strenght at normal init?

 

You use 1 ccw, the other only provides +1 attack. Scorpion is either +1 strength or doubled (assuming Eldar codex doesn't override this in some way)

[Void Master]

The scorpion's claw is S6, no other modifiers applied, as power fists can never be used in conjunction with another weapon anyway, and on top of that you have to decide to use one weapon in combat, not two at once (as JamesI has pointed out in their example with powerfist and power weapon).

 

And no, the Eldar codex does not override this in any way. The only way you can get S7 with a scorpions exarch is by getting lucky with the Biting Blade, otherwise it's 6 or 4.

[DevianID]

Actually you got it slightly wrong, a power weapon doesnt let you strike at initiative order, a power weapon's only special rule is that it ignores armor saves, which applies to all your close combat attacks--and those close combat attacks usually, but not always, are resolved in initiative order.

 

If a model is equipped with 2 special close combat weapons, it never recieves the bonus attack as the weapons are unwieldly, but by extention you can equip and use 2 special close combat weapons.

[Legatus]

I think some people need to re-read the rules for special close combat weapons. :rolleyes:

[werewolf_nr]

I think some people need to re-read the rules for special close combat weapons.

 

Agreed.

 

You only get the bonuses from one "special" weapon. The only exception is that you get +1 A if you have another (and nothing overrides this, like relic blade or storm shield).

[Praeger]

Can you please provide a rule quote to back up this position?

 

I see nothing in the rule book saying that you do not gain the benefits.....

 

I see where it says they do not get the benefit of an extra atack, and i see where it says "model armed with" a weapon - but nothing about a model USING only a single speacial weapons bonus's.

[eyescrossed]

Praeger, I see your reasoning, but then couldn't you say someone with a Lightning Claw and Power Fist strikes at Str8 and rerolls failed wounds?

[Lord Marius]

Well, reading the combat weapons page, it's not hard to imagine someone coming up with that interpretation.

 

Check out the entries for fists and claws - power fists say that a model with a power fist doubles its strength (says nothing about using it) and lightning claws say that they re-roll failed wound rolls (says nothing about only in the assault phase or specifically using the claw).

 

I can't see anywhere that says these abilities can only be used in combat - can anyone else?

[Legatus]

Try the paragraph titeled "Two different special weapons".

[Grey Mage]

As an eldar player I can say that the model using a chainsword gains +1 Str. However a scorpions claw counts as a powerfist, wich is a special close combat weapon. Thus you cant combine it with the chainsword for strength seven. In fourth you could get up to strength nine as the base was 4, +1 for an exarch ability. This is no longer the case.

[Praeger]

but then couldn't you say someone with a Lightning Claw and Power Fist strikes at Str8 and rerolls failed wounds?

 

Yep, thats exactly right.

 

Lightning claw "...allows the wielder to re-roll.."

 

Power fist "...doubles the users strength..."

 

I can't see anywhere that says these abilities can only be used in combat - can anyone else?

 

Thats true, there isnt - but when else could these bonus's come into effect? Are there any shooting attacks that use the users strength that are usable by a model with a power fist?

 

The only one that could would be Lightning claws.

 

As a side note nowhere in the rules does it actually say to use speacial close combat weapons when fighting a combat. In shooting it does mention what weapon profile to use etc, but in assault it never does. Yes it lists speacial weapons, but never says that they are actually usable (bit wierd I know)

 

Try the paragraph titeled "Two different special weapons".

 

Close, but this just states they dont get any bonus attacks.

 

As an eldar player I can say that the model using a chainsword gains +1 Str. However a scorpions claw counts as a powerfist, wich is a special close combat weapon. Thus you cant combine it with the chainsword for strength seven

 

Im an Eldar player as well. Im sure there are lots of us here. Being a player does not mean we know what the rule is :)

 

Please provide a rules quote to back this oppinion up as i am still not seeing anything that says they are not usable together. The Scorpions chainsword WOULD be classed as a speacial weapon in anycase.

 

In actual fact, the rules in the characteristic section actually give weight to it being allowed:

 

"If a model has a combination of wargear.....first multiply then add..."

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg. 42 "....these models must choose which weapon to use that turn......."

Legatus was correct.

Having two different 'special' weapons means you do not get the bonus attack and have to pick which one you wish to use.

Nothing in the rule allows you to get the bonuses and penalties of both weapons.

[angronn]

BRB pg. 42 "....these models must choose which weapon to use that turn......."

Legatus was correct.

Having two different 'special' weapons means you do not get the bonus attack and have to pick which one you wish to use.

Nothing in the rule allows you to get the bonuses and penalties of both weapons.

 

Ditto. Unless we're arguing that the powerfist inherently doubles strength whether you are using it or not (which some people seemed to be doing), "use" is quite easily understood to mean that you have to choose one or the other of your abilities.

[Praeger]

See, that quote is good for some weapons but not for all

 

Let me explain like this:

 

Weapon A - When used it grants I10

 

Weapon B - when used it doubles strength

 

Ok, pritty obvious - you can USE one, each have difrent bonus's so pick which to use.

 

Now the tricky bit:

 

Weapon B - when used it doubles strength

 

Weapon C - grants the model +1T

 

See the tricky bit? You are still only using ONE weapon. However Weapon C does not grant the adition only when used, it grants it all the time.

 

And this is the big thing - Does the chainsword grant the USER +1S, the MODEL +1S or something else? The exact wording here really does make the difrence as in all essence if it is "model" then the chainsword really could be anything from a chain to a weapon to a whatever, it still always grants the bonus.

[Legatus]

The special close combat weapons on page 61 in the BRB are introduced with this:

 

These include more complex and powerful weapons that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the model using them.

 

And the section then is closed with the note on multiple special close combat weapons:

 

When it is their turn to attack, these models must chose which weapon to use that turn,

 

So I would say it is pretty well established that special close combat weapons are used or not used. Not all special close combat weapon descriptions given on page 61 specifically demand that they are "used" for their effects, and GW continues with this kind of description in the Codices.

[angronn]

To back that point up, Codex: Tyranids specifically exempts Tyranids from the "usual" position of having to choose between special weapons.

[bt2278]

How about reading the whole rules, not just one sentence that seems interesting...

 

"Two of the same special weaopns" states +1A and all attacks benefit from the special weapon's rules.

"A normal and a special weapon": +1A and all attacks benefit from the special weapon's rules (unless the special weapon is a power fist/lightning claw//thunderhammer).

 

and then

 

"Two different special weapons": no bonus attack for using two weapons, you have to choose which weapon to use...

 

 

Even if you can come up with some...hmm...interesting... interpretations, the intention of the rules seems very clear: if you have two special weapons, decide which one you use and receive no bonus from the other (Quote: "such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!")^^

 

 

:D

[Praeger]

Except that again there is nothing that says the bonus for having the weapon are not counted.

 

As I showed above - Weapon B gives bonus's WHEN USED while weapon C gives bonus's NO MATTER WHAT.

 

If you USE weapon B you get that bonus, but weapon C bonus is also always in effect.

 

You could also USE weapon C, but that would simply mean that weapons B's bonus's are NOT in effect.

 

The rule that everyone keeps quoting is simply to do with bonus attacks, thats what the rule does actually say in black and white.

 

Now again, if the chainsword says "when this weapon is USED" then thats difrent, but is if says "the chainsword GRANTS THE MODEL" then thats an effect thats always in play.

 

Can you see the difrence that such a small difrence in wording can make and why it is important to have the exact wording known?