hartnett Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 i just need some clarification, me and one of my daemon playing friends got into a really big heated arguement about re-rolling invulnerables. the changer of ways allows you to re-roll all failed invulnerables within 6" of the model i gathered and null zone allows you to make some one re-roll any passed invulnerables i was there saying you aren't allowed to re-roll a re-roll EVER but he was going my re-roll is mine and that re-roll is yours allowing you to get a re-roll of a re-roll then i got confused :S in the end we decided to ignore all of the re-rolls as we wud end up arguing again can a re-roll belong to a person? which would allow you to re-roll re-rolls?? which would get annoying but i think that my mate only said that as it would mainly benefit me and he would lose his 333 point model but have a look at the rules for both abiliies and please can anybody clarify this :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 My instinct would be to do it like this: Demon rolls. If it fails, it rerolls. If it passes you force a reroll, result of that roll stands. Demon rolls. It passes. His reroll is not needed. You force a reroll. But, this is only my opinion, I can't prove out of the rules this is how it should be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 but wouldnt he be able to force his re-roll if he fails? which is where it got confusing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 my interpretation is he rolls and rerolls to see if he passes. Then you use your reroll. He can't reroll again. Otherwise you hit an infinite loop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 but he can only re-roll his once and i make him roll his once but ive always been told never to re-roll a re-roll but theyre for separate things which is quite confusing :S Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 He can't re-roll again, but you can re-roll his dice. You aren't physically rolling the dice of course but it's the effect you created that forced it. Since he has already re-rolled, he can't re-roll it again. So it goes like this- He rolls for his save. If he fails, he re-rolls it. If he passes, you force him to re-roll it. He can't re-roll it again as he has already re-rolled it due to his effect. That's my understanding of the rules anyway, I could be wrong though since the rules really weren't written with each other in mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 what about if he passes i make him fail dos he get to re-roll? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'd guess it was like this- He passes, you make him re-roll, if he fails he re-rolls it. Since they come from two different effects they shouldn't affect each other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I would have said both "re-rolls" affect the first round of rolling. So those that are passed need to be re-rolled ('your' re-roll) and those that have failed need to be re-rolled ('his' re-roll). Hence the first round of rolling is effectively null and void, and the re-rolls cancel out without: 1) breaking the "no re-rolling re-rolls" rule, or 2) affecting the probability of passing in an unfair fashion (which you would get from placing one or the other re-rolls first). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 EDIT: Double-post and I can't work out how to delete. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Since both sides forces rerolls, the sensible side seems to be that they cancel each other out. No rerolls for anyone, the first result stands. You both gain and lose equally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 BRB pg 2 "...no single dice can be re-rolled more than once regardless of the source of the re-roll." If you have a rule that tells you to re-roll all passed saves and he has a rule that tells you to re-roll all failed saves you first roll all saves than regardless of what the results were you re-roll all the saves. Than because you can't re-roll a dice more than once you accept the second roll no matter what it is. Since both sides forces rerolls, the sensible side seems to be that they cancel each other out.No rerolls for anyone, the first result stands. You both gain and lose equally. This is another option, but make sure to agree to it with your opponent before hand, otherwise you mignt get accused of cheating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 If both sucesses and failures results in rerolls, why bother rerolling at all? Statistically and gamewise you change nothing whatsoever. Might as well save yourself and your opponent the hassle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 he has 1 3+ invulnerable it would be worse for me to have them cancel out so ill have to say that he cant re-roll his re-rolls Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Unless I'm totally misstaken, rerolling both successes and failures cancels out each other, statistically speaking. The model have an equal chance of passing the re-rolled save, since whatever result the first save is, it still gets rerolled. So why bother rerolling? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 In this case you either: A) play strictly by the rules Roll an Inv save ,if it was passed the null field makes him re-roll, if he fails the changer makes him re-roll So no matter what was rolled, he re-rolls and takes the result of the second roll. :) make it fast and easy: since the two powers basicly cancel each other just make one Inv. save roll with no re-rolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 he has 1 3+ invulnerableit would be worse for me to have them cancel out so ill have to say that he cant re-roll his re-rolls I don't really think "it would be worse for me to have this reading of the rules" is a valid (or helpful) way to approach rules debates... Anyway, as Cedric says, the probability of the rolls will be the same either way. Of course, you might find you have a lucky roll first time round and an unlucky roll second time, or vice versa. As long as you're consistent it should even out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1900519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Since you need to reroll both failed saves and passed saves, you'd need to roll them, then reroll all of the dice, as all of them would either be a passed or failed save, I'd just say they cancel each other out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'd just say they cancel each other out. Which would be a house rule, not the rules. Is it really that impossible to pick up all the dice and roll them twice, only accepting the second result? I know I would if I rolled mostly failures the first time around; luckily, I'd be following the rules in doing so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I stand corrected on the rules, I missed that bit on page 2. As for re-rolling them all, yes you should by the rules, but on average they'd just cancel out anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Yes, they probably do cancel out the second roll. For instance, if I roll all 2's the first time around, then I roll all 5's the second time...well I'll take the second result (as I have to!) :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Yep, but if you roll all 5s the first roll, and all 2s the second, you have to take the twos :sweat: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 As I read it, both effects force all saves to be rerolled. So you roll them once, then roll again. Then call it quits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Yep, 10 saves for instance, roll all 10, dont bother looking at what they are, pick em all up and roll them a second time, this time its for real! Or, simply roll one set if you and your opponent want to save time--but make sure you are clear with your opponent before you roll... cause after you roll its impossible to explain why you shouldnt reroll the 10 straight 6's for your saves cause the powers 'cancel each other out.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Or, simply roll one set if you and your opponent want to save time--but make sure you are clear with your opponent before you roll... cause after you roll its impossible to explain why you shouldnt reroll the 10 straight 6's for your saves cause the powers 'cancel each other out.' Quoted for truth! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161756-null-zone-and-the-changer-of-ways/#findComment-1901762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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