Tourney troubles

[OnlyInDeath]

Well, I just got back from my LGS where they happened to have a tourney going on. There were a couple of space wolf players present, much to my surprise. While watching, the tourney master came up and we were chatting about the wolves, as we often do. He happened to notice that there was a unit of wolf guard termies on the table and was lamenting to me how bad off WG termies are in tournies. He pointed out the lack of relentless in our termie rules, which has already been discussed here ad nauseum. Then...he went on to say that we dont have the crux terminatus...This one made both myself and the SW player at the table both stare at him incredulously. I hate to say it, but this may be something we wolves run into at tournies due to ppl being powergamers.

 

Again, as has been discussed, only items that are in our armory in italics are linked to the C:SM corresponding entry. In what must be an obvious oversight since the printing of our dex, the entry for Terminator armor is lacking the italics. All that's listed in the summary page in the back of the dex for termie armor is the 2+ save. While i was really wanting to cry shenannigans, in this case i think rules lawyering may get the best of us. Obviously, in a friendly game, this wont matter much as most people arent *censored* about rules that much (even in that game, the opponent let the SW player save as normal). But to the tourney inclined in us, this may be yet another hindrance in taking SW termies.

 

I dont have a copy of the FAQ on me, so I would love to hear from someone that this guy was wrong based on that. I know this post will make more than a few wolves salty, but I didnt want any tournament faring brothers to be caught offguard on this, and wanted to open it up to discussion to see if this is wrong (and remember, for most tourney officers, RAI does not override RAW).

[Dark Bjoern]

We use the rules for TDA from C:SM. The only differenz is that we get it completly without weapons.

[OnlyInDeath]

I realize that's how we've been doin things Bjorn, but I'm playing the devil's advocate here to come up with an actual defense to someone raising this at a tourney so that people dont get massively hosed. This person's argument is based on the following entry

 

IMPORTANT: Space wolves may NOT pick wargear from the armoury in C:SM and must take all of thier equipment from the list before. A number of entries are basically the same as their counterpart in the standard Space Marines Armoury and, in this case, we've noted this by writing the entry in italics below. There is a brief description of how these items work on the summary page later in this codex, but you should refer to the Wargear section in Codes: Space marines for a full description

(pg 14 C:SW)

 

Emphasis in the Dex.

 

The argument here is that Terminator armor is not in italics, and therefore we dont follow the link to the C:SM. The only info listed in our dex (as it did actually come out before the advent of the crux terminatus, if memory serves) is that terminator armor gives a 2+ armor save (pg 31 C:SW)

 

Edited to note: this is the same argument that people are using to make it so we dont get relentless rules for our termies. They have just taken it one step further.

[OnlyInDeath]

Hmmmm.....after a little more searching through the dex, I think the following header on our armory should help in an arguement against the rule lawyering:

 

SPACE WOLVES WARGEAR

The rules below describe how the specialised equipment used by the Space Wolves works in the game. Any items not listed here function exactly as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Space marines. Any wargear chosen must be represented on the model.

(pg 15 C:SW)

 

Since terminator armor is not considered "specialized equipment", ie, it is not listed in the space wolves armory, it should follow the rules listed in the C:SM, even tho it is not listed in itallics on the previous page.

[SeanyPrawny]

I was going to reply to this in a useful way but now all that's left for me to do is say gratz. You solved your own problem :D

[Dark Bjoern]

That´s the reason why i don´t participate in tourneys. All tourney players i had met so far are rule-f.....! Endless discussions about things that don´t need to be discussed cause they are clearly discripted in the books. And they don´t stop untill you gave up and agree to them only to get your peace. And they even try this with the judges. In friendly games i never had have such problems.

[OnlyInDeath]

Yeah, I hear you Bjorn. I only want to go to tournies just to kick butt in the name of Russ. But I also am careful to pick lists that dont have controvercial units so that I dont have to argue my point with anyone. I kinda wanted to make this post cuz I felt really bad when this one guy had his day ruined by rules lawyering *censored* and I couldnt think of a way to back up a brother

[Dark Bjoern]

IF they would discuss only about our units, but they discuss about basic rules! With the judges!!!!!

[Yeti]

Hmmmm.....after a little more searching through the dex, I think the following header on our armory should help in an arguement against the rule lawyering:

 

SPACE WOLVES WARGEAR

The rules below describe how the specialised equipment used by the Space Wolves works in the game. Any items not listed here function exactly as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Space marines. Any wargear chosen must be represented on the model.

(pg 15 C:SW)

 

Since terminator armor is not considered "specialized equipment", ie, it is not listed in the space wolves armory, it should follow the rules listed in the C:SM, even tho it is not listed in itallics on the previous page.

 

This argument is also supported by the inclusion of other non-specialized equipment like the Storm Shield (which is in italics) in the summary on p31. Since the only place the entire rules are presented is in the SM codex, you refer to the SM codex.

[Grey Mage]

Yes its the wargear page, not the armoury that allows us to use terminator armor etc. Otherwise without said heading it would not even give us a 2+ save as there are no rules that state it does anywhere in the book. Only the iron priest has a 2+ save in his statline.

 

Between the two pages we have an air tight ruling on where we get our rules from... if you cant find it at home, its next door at C:SM.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

thats why i carry my dice in a sock... makes an excelent club.

[Dark Bjoern]

thats why i carry my dice in a sock... makes an excelent club.

Exellent idea! ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i seriously cannot believe a person this stupid has existed as long as they have, i thought natural selection would have fixed that problem.

 

then again, i work in customer service....proof positive that stupid people are breeding.

 

sorry that such an oxygen thief wasted your time and ruined your pack brother's day...i would recommend an exterminatusock assault to prevent such stupidity from repeating itself.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Spacefrisian]

thats why i carry my dice in a sock... makes an excelent club.

 

 

Reading this i guess you take the rulebook from the starter set with you to tourneys.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed... the pen is mightier than the sword because pens make books, and no one sees that hardback coming.

 

Eh, in any case I wouldnt worry about it to much... any player worth his salt will atleast hear you out, and if you have the FAQs and codex to show him you should be in the clear. Its just that theres mis-information out there.... and to many people not using common sense.

[Vassakov]

Hmm... well, this might be one of those cases where RAW falls flat on it's face because it simply doesn't work. The FAQ and C:SW both provide clear instuctions on how the equipment works, and if they're going to be anal about having to have it spelled out for them in teeny, tiny words... they're not worth playing.

[G. A. K.]

I was that wolf player and I was SHOCKED when he said that! I tried to explain that the summary isn't the catch all sheet of rules, its only intended to save you a few minutes from getting out your C:SM and checking in there. Neither I nor my opponent felt he was right so we played under the standard rules of 2+/5+ inv with relentless.

The main problem was that He was running the tourny so there wasn't any higher power present to tell him he was wrong :tu: . That became a huge problem in the next battle which was against IG... Dawn of war deployment: He ruled that my opponent could deploy two troop platoons and one HQ platoon (his whole army except for three russes and a hellhound!). While my rhino still counted as one of my choices? what??? Between that and his 'modified' kill points I didn't have much of a chance to get my wolves to in the mix, as he won first turn.

He modified them as follows:HQ-3; elite,heavy,fast-2; troops-1; dedicated transprots-0. Other tournies have used those kill point rules, which make more intersting, but He went on to state that one whole platoon was one kill point; and if you combat squaded your marines, both had to die to get one kill point for them too??? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of kill points? if you can hold two objectives shouldn't they be two kill points?

I doubt I'll be going to any of his tournies in the future, to avoid his 'interesting' interpretations of the rules.

 

In his defense, this was his first time running a tourny. But I find it unlikely time will change any of his views.

 

G

[OnlyInDeath]

Wow, that is one of the worst interpretations of the kill point rules I've ever heard.

 

My counter arguement to that would be, "ok, if a platoon is only one kill point, then an entire platoon can only capture one objective, and cant break up into squads." I've noticed that the guy running has his own ideas of how warhammer should work, and I would classify him as a "power gamer". He should definately know better that every squad counts as a kill point, and any combat squad does too. Any tourney that i've played in or have watched, that's how it's played.

 

I'm sorry that you had such a rough time there, brother. I was glad to see another wolf in the madison area! should let me know if there's any tournies at other stores, we'll go represent.

[G. A. K.]

The best place I know of to find tournies in the madison/appleton/fon du lac area is 'madison40kgamers.com' they post all the good stuff on there. btw its nice to match a face to the name OID.

 

G