Asterixlee Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 So here's what I seem to understand. A Grey Hunter with a bolter can either fire two shots within 12" or one shot over 12" He cannot assault in the same turn that he fires because a bolter is not an assault weapon or a pistol. If he does assault (or gets assaulted) he gets two attacks because the bolter counts as a CC weapon. A Grey Hunter with a Bolt Pistol can fire one shot within 12" and then assault, receiving a +1 charge bonus because the pistol is assault 1, for a total of three CC attacks (on the charge) I either have a firing line with an extra CC attack that doesn't care if it gets charged or a CC squad thats the same as a vanilla marine BP/CC squad. What the grey hunter special rule says, overall, is "grey hunters are unusually good at defending themselves against enemy charges". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Yeah, pretty much. They get twice as many close combat attacks as their vanilla counterparts armed with bolters. Combined with counter-attack, keen senses, and an older version of stubborn *thought it no longer applies* thats why we cost 3 points more than our brothers when this codex came out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thats why Grey Hunters are better at receiving charges....they get the full use of a Bolter but then can use the Bolter in a counter-attack as a second weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Actually they get two attacks either way... they are in fact equally good at charging and receiving the charge. 40k announcer says "Common down and pick up your grey hunters NOW! Along with keen senses and excellant equipment they get two attacks all the time! Thats right, charging, receiving, seven turns from now. Gettem before their gone!!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Lol yeah but they are better at it than a vanilla Space Marine, which is to say Grey Hunters are better at just about everything =D j/k Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Dont even joke about it, your right.... wich is why one of our squads usually runs around 230 pts and a codex squad usually around 190pts. Were better, and we pay for it strait out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Dont even joke about it, your right.... wich is why one of our squads usually runs around 230 pts and a codex squad usually around 190pts. Were better, and we pay for it strait out. Yeah, it's always funny seeing an ork player charge a GH line and expect to win... Seriously though, we do pay for every bit of awesomeness we have, which is why we are always out numbered. We expect more out of our troops, and they typically come through for us. It just hurts that much worse when your dice are against you. I do hope we keep the counter charge, as it's what makes us different from any other marine. BA's are the assault squad army, DA's shooty, BT's the assault+numbers army, we're the counterattacking army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 um, correct me if i'm wrong, but don't grey hunters get 3 attacks if charged (assuming they passed the leadership test for countercharge)? if so then the best tactic is to walk up to six, rapid fire, get charged, and mug em. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1902998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Nope.... you only get 3 attacks on the countercharge if you have BP+CCW. We get +1 attack as if wed charged.... true grit says we dont get to count the bolter when charging.... so its still 2 attacks with a bolter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 my understanding was since counter charge says "like when you charge" and isn't a charge, you still got it. i think we need a rules pack member ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Its "as if you charged". When you charge true grit fails to work "as a bolter is to unweildy to use in this fashion while throwing oneself headlong at the enemy. Of course if your not using the bolter as a CCW youd get the attack... so a bolter+powerfist GH has an additional attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 @grey mage. i'm not trying to argue, i just want to be sure thats all. ;) my understanding of it was that since you hadn't actually charged, you still got it. the words "as if you had assaulted" were just there for clarification purposes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Im not wanting an argument either.... just making sure that Id gotten both the quotes out there. I can see where youve gotten your idea a bit... if youve got more to back it up Im willing to listen as I havent re-read the BRB in about four months or so. The interpretation Im going on is also the one that lets bloodclaws get +2A on the charge/counter charge. If the alternative interpretation could be proven thered be quite a stir in the community lol :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 GM has it right, and you can also reference the B&C 5th ed FAQ on the top of the page for how this works as well. But in short, it goes as follows: If you pass your Ld test, you may then use your countercharge ability, which is as if the GH's charged (ie, 1 attack for being a model, 1 for charging, 0 for having a bolter). If you fail your Ld test, you dont use countercharge, but you still have true grit active (and you still pile in due to the 5th ed rulebook) and would therefore still have 2 attacks (1 for being a model, 1 for ccw and true gritted bolter). If you happen to have CCW/BP armed models and they pass the Ld test, you would have 3 attacks (1 for being a model, 1 for charging, 1 for 2 ccw's). A wolf pelt will give an additional +1 attack on a countercharge as well (making IC's even more dangerous on the counter than if they charged!). And if memory serves, BC's will still benefit from berzerk charge and get all 4 attacks on the countercharge, tho correct me if i'm wrong here GM. Edit: I think what's hanging you up is the difference between the counter attack ABILITY and just the mechanics of CC with the new edition where everyone does the "pile in move" that counter attack used to be. It changed with the advent of the new edition to grant models with the ability to count as charging if they pass the Ld test. This is what makes GH's so nasty. In close combat, they will ALWAYS have at least 2 attacks for every assault phase (between true grit or countercharge). This actually makes them as good as nilla vets in some regards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 well, the interpritation i have, and so do some of my wolf freinds is that thay line is just for clarification. so my understanding is blood claws only get 3 attacks on the contercharge, but grey hunters get 3 as well. because the BRB says the unit takes a leadership test when assaulted, if passed it gets the +1 assault bonus to their attacks (then the coma), like they had assaulted that turn. thats where it gets confusing. for us it has meant that grey hunters get +1 (as i believe in the faq they say that this can give units more attacks than if they charge), but blood claws only get +1. this makes the most sence too me, because i don't see blood claws being as effective on the counter-charge, but i do see grey hunters being better (the whole "the best offense is a good deffense" idea) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 thanks a lot onlyindeath! that changes supprisingly little with my army actually...hmmm...(my grey hunters almost never get into combat for some reason). i'm glad to get that, and will consede the point. so my blood claws get 4 attacks on the counter charge...hmm.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rommel44 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 K, so if im following this correctly, it should look something like this: Grey Hunters: 2A when charging 2A when counter-charging Blood Claws: 4A when charging 4A when counter-charging (asked a guy from GW, since they have berserk charge, the get all of there attacks when they counter charge) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Bingo. and an IC (with a wolf pelt, ccw and pistol) would be: 6 attacks on charge 7 on countercharge (4 base, 1 charge, 1 for 2 ccw's, 1 for Wolf pelt) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 well i just wanted to say thanks again to OnlyInDeath and Grey Mage for the help and clarification. I was talking to my wife (a 1k sons player) and now she is REALLY scared of my blood claws. so it has helped quite a bit already! thanks again guys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Well why wouldnt they be as effective on the counter-charge? If you look at it from a realistic POV (I know this game doesn't do well with reality but sometimes it helps to get perspective) they would be infuriated to be attacked and would re-double their efforts in fighting, as it says in the Space Wolf Codex's description of counter-attack, the Space Wolves believe the best defense is to go on the offensive. The Blood Claws, being hot-headed and full of the thought of glory in battle, would be just as fierce, if not more so, in a counter-attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Right so my WGBL with bolter, fist and pelt would get 5 attacks right on the counter but only his base 4 on the charge? sounds right, just wanna be sure so I don't cheat my mates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Right so my WGBL with bolter, fist and pelt would get 5 attacks right on the counter but only his base 4 on the charge? sounds right, just wanna be sure so I don't cheat my mates. No I believe it's 6 on the Counter and 5 on the Charge. Unless your actually using the Bolter to get the +1 attack then it doesn't restrict your charge bonus and Power Fists can no longer get +1 attack for anything except another fist, so you'd get +1 for charging, or +1 for Counter Charging and +1 for the Pelt when counter charging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Ah so I was cheating myself lmao. Good to know though it didn't stop him destroying 5 sword brethren and their crusader ride B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1903354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJumppanen Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I thought that pelt doesn't work anymore. Anyway: How about power fists? Should i take PW to GH's instead of Fists? In case of BC's fist is usefull anyway, but with GH's would it be beter to take PW just to get some extra attacks? I have a Apoc. match coming up and i was planing to take my SWs for the ride for the first time if i can't arrange a traning match before that. My plan was to take GHs in rhinos and put Blackmane and some BCs into a Land Raider (then again, Ragnar seems to give that ability to any unit he joins...) . Rhino squads would basicaly just dismount and shoot (hence they would have a plasmagun and LR squad would charge whatever they can. I'm not sure how many wolf guards i would take, but propably least one for that LR squad. If i manage to get/borrow/steal another LR, i propably get some terminators with Heavy flamers, possibly lead by Logan. I will have a another terminator group armed with Cyclone missiles, but i'm not sure if i can get some wolfs in that pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1904472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 As far as I know Pelt's still work, there's nothing that contradicts them unless I'm forgetting something. And Power Fists? Heck ya! IMO there should always be at least 1 PF in a SW unit, you never know when you'll need those str 8 attacks, whether fighting Dreadnaughts, Monsterous Creatures, Multi-Wound models or Characters, they almost always come in handy where Power Weapons are nice but I never see them do quite the damage my Fists do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161969-still-trying-to-make-sense-of-true-grit/#findComment-1904506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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