Wing_Knight Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Have any of the rest of you ever had someone you play against call the 3rd ed wolves broken? I just played against a blood angels player who quit on turn 3 in a 2.5k match. Granted i had the game pretty much in the bag but still it was the first time i had my wolves called broken...sure its a little annoying i am sure for the BA and DA to not get the new toys from C:CSM but still it kinda hurt that he said it and it got me wondering if others had some similar experiences. (clarification i did not even have a terminator on the field, i did not obel my scouts, all he mainly was peeved at was my 3 HQ's having 7 str 5 power weapon attacks on my counter charge, and one ironclad that i drop podded on his devs and proceeded to make meat pies out of) Also before the suggestion is made that i just don't play against him ever again...sadly i live out in the middle of no where and we play in my basement >.> he is even borrowing my old BA's since he hasn't bothered to buy his own army. (P.S. i am thinking of seeing about driving the 45 min once a week to get someone else to play against because i am getting a little tired of his shenanigans) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 your p.s. says all i need to hear. i live in fernandina beach fl. the nearest gamer is in jax, fl, a good 40-50 minutes away....if the traffic is in my favor. i make the drive every saturday to my LGS, and am even running a campaign at the moment. the way i look at it is 2 hours of driving (1 there and 1 back) is worth it if i get that time back playing against good opponents. i usually spend the day at the store, get 3 or so games in, aside from shop talk and talking smack. maybe you should make that trip and see for yourself. and no, i dont find wolves cheesy as too many good opponents have effective counters for my wolves....gives me a weeks worth of time plotting my revenge! wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wing_Knight Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 *chuckles* Ai' GW use to have a shop 10 minutes away but sadly they closed ;) so i had been use to playing against very skilled opponents, as well as a great variety of them. *shrugs* i suppose i will do my best to find some time to head out to the localish stores.Who knows maybe my friend will come with me to he can play against someone else or i might spare the shop from him >.> :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 if he whined enough to really bother you, you might want to show him a less challenging game like...paper-scissor-rock. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wing_Knight Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 LOL surprisingly enough he never complained about thrashing my Eldar in fifth edition *chuckles* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Some people are just like that.... or think that if their army cant reproduce it it must be broken. After all... marines get no monstrous creatures so carnifexes and wraithlords are broken, especially if you take more than one... cause like they kill dreadnaughts! OMG!!!11!OnE! *spreads hands* Remind him, every time his arse is kicked its just karma for when he kicks someone elses. Alternative... take the exact same lists, switch sides, and beat him with the blood angels. It might be a lil tougher but Im sure you can do it. Then remind him that the blood angels are actually a less power gamered list really, and let him proxy ultramarine rules with them for a while and see how he likes it. Besides, theres some crazy crap I can pull with eldar that would make any wolf lord wince... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Those guys who used to go to the shop 10 Mins away still should be around, try going to the nearest shop and see if you run into any of them, get some numbers and meet to play at peoples houses and go to the shop every so often as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 The fact that my Wolf lord, his 4 Termie brothers, a pack of BC's with a Wolf Priest and a pack of GH's with a Rune Priest took out three Daemon Princes says we can kick arse better than anyone else. The fact that my Wolf Lord and his retinue and the Blood Claws and Wolf Priest all died in the process says we're still a competitive list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denkal Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Yeah, my wolves have been called broken MANY times, and I just see it as an opponent whose cookie-cutter powergaming list isn't meant to handle the Wolves. Wether it's the 3-4 powerfists in a unit, the Old & Wise special rule on our Dreads, or even the Chooser of the Slain. This is actually the same person every time, and ironically enough, every time he changed his army, I found a way to cripple it. He started off playing Tau with plenty of Kroot and Stealthsuits, which were hurt by the Chooser of the Slain. Then he went Tyranids, where I introduced him to the combo of the Leman Russ Exterminator and the Land Raider Crusader. Not to mention blowing power fist-sized holes in whatever carnifex he threw at me. Then he went Dark Angels for about a week. He was pissed when I showed him the Blood Feud rule. After that, he finally switched to Black Templars, where I show him that Space Wolves aren't just good in assault. By the time he reaches me, his numbers aren't much of a threat. I personally don't believe that space wolves are broken, just that they're so versatile, it's hard to think of a cookie-cutter way to beat them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneSniperSG Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Yeah, my wolves have been called broken MANY times, and I just see it as an opponent whose cookie-cutter powergaming list isn't meant to handle the Wolves. Wether it's the 3-4 powerfists in a unit, the Old & Wise special rule on our Dreads, or even the Chooser of the Slain. This is actually the same person every time, and ironically enough, every time he changed his army, I found a way to cripple it. He started off playing Tau with plenty of Kroot and Stealthsuits, which were hurt by the Chooser of the Slain. Then he went Tyranids, where I introduced him to the combo of the Leman Russ Exterminator and the Land Raider Crusader. Not to mention blowing power fist-sized holes in whatever carnifex he threw at me. Then he went Dark Angels for about a week. He was pissed when I showed him the Blood Feud rule. After that, he finally switched to Black Templars, where I show him that Space Wolves aren't just good in assault. By the time he reaches me, his numbers aren't much of a threat. I personally don't believe that space wolves are broken, just that they're so versatile, it's hard to think of a cookie-cutter way to beat them. I don't know, my armor support got blown over pretty quick. But maybe it's just that Land Raiders don't like Blood Thirsters banging on the front hatch. But even after my tanks were gone, my infantry smashed anything close enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Personally, I'm of the belief that the Wolves fit more into the Eldar-esque style than the standard Astartes style. We do have some truely dangerous units, but only in certain circumstances. It takes time and effort to master these units and styles, but once done the army is nigh-on unstoppable. Couple this with the fact that we can do a Dread-heavy list one week, a footsloggers horde the next, Mech after that and polish the month off with a Drop Pod Assault and your opponent could find himself wrong footed on a regular basis. On the other hand, I feel sorry for the Blood Angels. I've played them a couple of times, and they just cannot hold a candle to us. They're strength lies in the numbers of Assualt Marines and Veteran Assault Marines they can field, the Baal Predator and Death Company. RAS/VAS and DC are woefully outmatched by us in CC and a Baal vs. PA these days isn't that great anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 The thing is codex marines can do the same thing.... dreads one week, half again as many.... footslogging, drop podding, tread-head, Uber-unit emphasis, landraider spam.... but the thing is, they usually dont. And I think thats where the problem is. They choose one style and try to use it like a beat-stick. That doesnt work as well. And Ill agree with the Eldar-esque statement. Ive played them longer than wolves, and the key has always, always been to find the hidden bits of versatility in the unit. How many different ways can you show that unit to be badass against how many different foes. The more ways you find the better youll do... because theyll never see that antitank unit coming for their infantry platoon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnarRedsun Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 i agree with grey mage. i play a lot of specialist armies. in fact, i play all of them, from kroot to catachans to dark eldar infantry (with no witches). and the lesson in all of them is to really learn the versatility of your units. people get really confused when, for example, i march my kroot up to 12, and rapid fire, dropping a marine squad. or when my catachans all infiltrate on my back board edge. why do i do these things? to suprise people, to catch them off guard, and because i know my units are able to survive what will follow. it is unusal, but works well none the less. thats why i love space wolves. while we are slightly more versatile than marines, we are much less at the same time. so we have to learn how each unit works, and how to best support our other units. thats how i was able to pull consistant tourney wins at 1500 points with 2 units of grey hunters, full unit of blood claws, 2 dreads, wgbl, long fangs and exterminator, with 5 objectives on the table (heck on game i only lost like 3 blood claws). its about knowing your units strengths and maximizing them while minimizing weakness. and when you understand that, then any army can seem "broken" to a less skilled opponent. and thats all it is man, skill and knowledge (with a bit of luck thrown in). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Nostromo Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 The great variation of different army types a space wolf player can deploy for any match is a great strength which causes much of the 'broken' type press many of us have recieved. However, as Grey Mage rightly states, this is the case for any space marine chapters but is often neglected, and hence other marine forces can become a one trick horse. Having said that, eldar is my second army (wow is the paint job terrible!) and I could quickly write a list which would hamper any of the various wolfy combinations I now employ. Unfortunately, many players want to win/be successful without really trying or thinking, and thus, perhaps the above suggestion of rock paper scissors might be better :P To be honest though, finding a few good opponents who value sound tactics and game experiences in both victory and defeat makes the hobby so much more enjoyable. Hopefully Russ will grant you some worthy opponents to 'unbreak' your force soon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Our local club champion is a BA player - and he owns people...alot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Durendal Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Actually a guy I've played with off and on again called my Wolves cheesy last nioght and quit after turn 1. Now he usually plays me when I play my Elysians so my Wolves were a surprise to him, but he still thought the Wolves were overpowered. Granted he admitted he took a crap Eldar list that was lacking in AT ability, but still. He griped that it's unfair we get all the goodies from the new SM 'dex and no drawbacks. Basically he was unprepared to face my mech'd out Wolves with his primarily footslogging Eldar and quit b./c of it So no worries bud, it happens to the best of us Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I've never felt that the BA, who are an assault army, could handle SW in CC for any length of time. The change to the rending and fnp also screwed the death co. because they can't use it against rending shots or ap 2 plasma anymore. its also hard to stomach that we are as good (or better) being charged as when we charge, so that negates all that jump-pack movement that the BA are all about these days. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1903984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Yeah, but BA were never the equal of SWs in CC and it's been that way for a couple of editions. Let's face it, BA are Ultramarines with anger management problems and even though they have a few goodies that make them better than smurfs in close combat ... they're still just a bunch of red smurfs. On the other hand, SWs were always the best "in your face" army. Nothing can match us in the 0-12" distances. The combination of withering close fire support and unmatched close combat capacities means that if we can get close to you in decent shape ... you're toast. Other close combat armies have problems coming to grips with this. They think that because they're good in close, they can mop up our Wolves on the charge. They soon learn otherwise! At the same time, the "in your face" aspect of the wolves is also our weakness. We have to get within 12" of the enemy to be truly effective. This means that against gunline armies (IG, Tau, some SM/CSM configs) we have a lot of trouble. This has been somewhat mitigated by the use of drop pods, but this also means that our firepower is more spread out (temporally) and we're at the mercy of scatter dice. Long story short ... no we're not broken. It's just normal that we perform well when the opponent does what we want them to do and gets too close to us! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you lose to army X, that means army X is broken..right ?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Nob bikerz is broken..I don't care what anyone says. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Jonny I respectfully disagree. Those nob squads are expensive as all hell. Theyre strong, very strong.... but they arent broken. I havent seen anything truely broken since a 3rd ed blood angel rhino-rush. And even that could be beaten with alot of power weapons and a bit of luck. Nothing is unkillable with a well worked and balanced list. Not even titans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Guess we'll have to disagree then Grey Mage. Considering the only characters with more than 1 wound in the entire C:SM are independant characters or HQ. 10 Nobz, 2 wounds each, Pain boy, feel no pain, cybork bodies, T5 on a bike, 3+invul and a turbo boost, permanent 4+ cover save from exhaust fumes, boss pole, war banner, twin linked strength 7 machine guns (I don't care what your BS skill is, that's still around 10-12 wounds min), 3 of them with power claws. All for the lovely price of about 700pts. Oh, furious charge as a nice side dish. Admittedly, they can be beat...but so far I have only seen tailored, specifically kill biker squad, not great at much else kind of lists. but I could be off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I think the other thing it comes down to is the individual behind the army - the players themselves. I've noticed that most people in this thread are some of our Long Fangs - those of us who have earned our pelts of many years of combat. A new player can be given an "Uber Cheese Borken OFMG!!!11!ONE!!1" list, a veteran can take a relatively balanced, "uncompetetive" list and still win confortably. I have quite a bit of fun designing my own lists just in my head (6.5 hours of swimming a week... keeps me fit, but a tad repetitive) and the net result of this is 2/3 lists going to the schools league tomorrow which are painful, to say the least. The fact that I can take a few armies and either make a good list out of them, then beat them with a list of my own has basically removed cries of "Cheese" that might head the Wolves way and stuck them firmly to me... but I don't mind so much, because at the end of the day I know all their tricks, and a few they don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORKILL Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Jonny I respectfully disagree. Those nob squads are expensive as all hell. Theyre strong, very strong.... but they arent broken. I havent seen anything truely broken since a 3rd ed blood angel rhino-rush. And even that could be beaten with alot of power weapons and a bit of luck. Nothing is unkillable with a well worked and balanced list. Not even titans. The BA Rhino rush was an easy nut to crack in 3rd. I used to play IG against a BA player all the time. I'd beat him 4/5 games......and he always had a 10 man Death Co. ....and full squads.:P When I started playing SW, his BA army went on the shelf and he switched to CSM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORKILL Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 My old SW army was called cheesey by an Eldar player in 4th Ed. A Thousand Son player at a tournament said the wolves were broken. My list for the tourn. was: Wolf Lord: FB Razorback Ven Dread AC, CC, HF WGBL/ TA, PF, SB 9 GH: PW, PF, MG, Rhino 14 BC: 2xPW, 1 PF, 9 GH: W/WG w/PF, Rhino LR Ex. Landspeeder w/MM I wasn't maxed out on PFs. I didn't take any scouts. He was pissed because I got a major win. BTW he was a GW store manager. Recently, I told someone that I was going to start a new SW army. Their reply was "Don't bring 4 PF". :yes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162021-space-wolves-broken/#findComment-1904426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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