Space wolves broken?

[dietrich]

If you think that all armies lie on some sort of bell curve of power, SW would be off to the 'melee' side of the curve with IG and Tau on the 'shooting' end. Not that SW can't shoot, but most long-range weaponry is only in the HS slot, unlike most armies that have some long-range guns in the troops selection and elsewhere. When an army is towards one side of the bell curve or the other, they'll get some rock-paper-scissors matchups and can annihilate some armies and be annihilated by others. Especially once you consider that SWs have a huge variety in effective builds.

 

SW are pretty good in fifth edition right now. They get cheap(er) wargear than their SM counterparts, and unlike DA/BA/BT, they get the crazy new special rules for the wargear. Our troops choices are good in melee, better than loyalist marines (although not as good as Zerkers or Noise Marines). Fifth edition is fairly short-ranged, another thing SWs are good at (especially since we can drop-pod a 10-man GH squad w/ a WGPL and an IC atttached, with 2 plasma pistols, a special weapon, and two-combi weapons in the unit).

 

SWs used to be the cheddar. Then they weren't. Now, they're starting to get a fairly high cheddar content again.

 

Having said all that, I don't think SWs are dramatically better than BA. I hate Baal Predators and DC. But, if you're just looking to build the most broken SW army list that you can find, and sticking your friend with a 'battlebox' BA army (in other words, you bought the battlebox and a few extra random units - one of this, one of that, etc.), you should win handily.

[Grey Mage]

*spreads hands* For the abilities we get on a basic grey hunter, namely counter attack and keen senses we pay an extra two points per model for. Now frankly IMHO that means we pay 2 pts for counterattack and true grit. Is it worth it? Yes. Do we pay for it... very much so.

 

But its only 2 points!!!one!11!

 

Hold up.... those nifty abilities are fun yes, and one of the key points of space wolf strength. Codex Marines now also get nifty abilities... combat squads, wich let them use their specialties to the max and hold up to 12 objectives in a single game and Combat Tactics wich gives them the unique ability to not receive a charge unless they want to. Lets say that Combat tactics and True grit even out... we are better in combat, they can opt not to be in combat.

 

Wich means its 20pts per squad. And thats so we can sit around and shoot bolters with no difference in ability to our codex brethren. So in order to make the most out of the squad we have to give them some equipment... alright. Lets check it out- Grey Hunters with a power weapon and a meltagun is 200pts. A codex Marine Squad with a Power weapon and Meltagun is 190pts, and the guy who has the power weapon has an extra attack over our GH, leadership 9 for the squad, and combat tactics.

 

Wait! And extra attack and leadership 9? We can make these squads alot more similar but removing a grey hunter and giving them a wolf gaurd with bolt pistol and power weapon. Now the squad is 231pts to 190pts and the special weapons are equiped on Identical models. Thats 41pts, or more than a terminator, that we pay.

 

It gets more interesting... Lets run a pack of 10 with bolters, 2xPowerweapon, Meltagun, and a rhino. Wait, cant forget the seargent so make that 9 with a wolf gaurd- 276pts.

 

Now lets see here.... Codex squad of ten, with a rhino, power weapon and meltagun is 235pts... they cant take a second powerweapon so what can we do to even things out... something thats good at killing marines. I know! A plasmacannon! . That brings our total to.... 240pts. Huh. So the difference between the two squads is the price of a rhino. That doesnt sound like alot, but remember that its about 13% more, per squad. The plasmacannon allows them to take out light tanks and heavy infantry at a distance... while grey hunters have to get stuck in to effectively use that plasma cannon. Thats worth alot in my eyes.

 

Now I dont know about the rest of you but I spent some time in the Dark Angels forum when the new codex came out... and you know what they figured out? The horrible point descrephancy that caused almost a third of their forum to stop playing their favorite army?

 

10%. Thats 75% of the cost of one of our grey hunter packs compare to one of the C:SM tactical squads.

 

And you know what? We stand. We play.

 

Yeah, we get the cool new abilities, and yeah we can customize our units but we pay for it. We pay the same for our vehicles, and we get the same vehicles. We get a discount on our venerable dreadnaughts, and we pay twice as much per shot for our LRE as a dakka predator equivilants. We can make the most disgusting terminator squads known to man... and well pay 8-900pts for it.

 

Were not broken, even after all this time. The stupid gets are just jealous, or like with the Eldar Wraithlord back in 4rth... unable to to think clearly on how to kill their enemies. In short its not us- its them.

[Vash113]

Here, here well said have an Ale!

[TAVAAR]

I am currently the "Champion" with my Wolves at my local GW (which is one of the better ones in my region for competition) and I can't recount to you the times that I've been told they're broken...AND THATS IN FRIENDLY GAMES! Not even in challenge matches, and EVEN when I LOSE!

 

Look I started in fantasy so I'm used to (and like very much) the aspect of TACTICS. I play five 40K armies and I just learn how to use them right (I started with Eldar...go figure on the tactics thing huh?). I don't like a lot about 5th (especially with how it affects my Wolves) but that is just another challenge to overcome right?! When I get taken to town and whomped on, does it feel good NO, but it gives me the opportunity to learn to play better against X person and/or X army.

 

I'm tired of temper tantrum players (especially in friendly games) and am a huge supporter of sportsmanship. If you get beat, keep your cool, learn from the game and move on to greater victory!

 

I'm done ranting, now, where's my ale?!

[Wing_Knight]

Wow its amazing how my little *cough* vent *cough* has sparked such an interesting conversation. And for this i take my hats off to my fellow brothers in arm *raises an ale and toast you all* but i just want to clear something up

@dietrich i just want to assure you i did not give my friend the shaft in fact he was playing with 3 dev squads a dreadnought 3 attack bikes a 10 man scout squad a 10 man VAS a 10 DC lemartez...and he had an entire battle company to choose from as well my deathwing which i would have let him use in place of BA termies. Now i will say he is a little out meched then me i have an almost fully-mech SW army with 3 drop pods however if he wanted he could have used a Baal pred as well as 3 LR, he also knew i was mech and thus why he brought the 3 dev squads and the attack bikes which droped had incapacitated most of my vehicles by turn 2.

 

I just wanted everyone to know it wasn't because he was playing with a sub-par amount of models to choose from for his list i am going to say the list was a little sub par in my opinion but he made it to his specs. Now i would like to say that i whole heartedly agree with Grey, we are not broken we pay threw the nose to get the good stuff that we get. And i firmly believe that almost every codex is quite capable of being competitive. What winning comes down to is tactics and how the dice go.(I say most because i have not seen every army in play but from what i know there are very few armies that really are just plain not worth playing, now there are certainly some that are more powerful then others but for that power they tend to have to make a sacrifice to get it. IE small numbers, small number of scoring units etc.)

 

Also as a side note i find it funny that he had such a hard time swallowing my SW's when he has fought my brothers Nidzilla army to very similar effect. Now there is an army that is tough to win against (in annihilation, have to admit when i play him with objectives he is always fighting for a draw after i toast his scoring units by turn 2) I feel like the next time i play him i should use my Eldar just to make him feel better and begin preparations to drive to a shop for my future gaming needs.

 

P.S. I just had a thought earlier before i got my SW my friend i think was something like 8-1 against my eldar in fifth edition (which by the way i never complained about because for me just playing is fun. I like winning but by no means is it the most important thing to me) As soon as i switched to SW and occasionally to my brothers nids he has yet to win a game against me...*chuckles*

[Vash113]

It's surprising your Eldar were doing so poorly against him, my bro plays Eldar and I fight them quite a bit and they are a very powerfull army, I just happen to know most of his armies tricks so he can't pull one over on me hehe.

 

Well if he had so much to choose from and made a bad list that's his problem but oh well, hopefully taking the time to drive to the hobby shop will be worth it.

[Wing_Knight]

Yup yup hopefully it will, and as for my eldar i suppose they would do better if like you my friend didn't know them like the back of his hand and if he didn't tend to make his lists to face me IE had so much anti-tank that i never made it past halfway before being forced to the ground...though i never did try reserve eldar maybe i will give that a try next time me and him play.

[Grey Mage]

When I play eldar its mostly footslogging... I reccommend it for killing marines. Dont waste points on waveserpents unless the unit absolutely needs them to get the job done.

 

Between a wraithlord, a dark reaper squad, a falcon, and some swooping hawks I find I have all the AT I need, and a unit of fire dragons if there could be terminators in the area. Dont bother with gaurdians... half the points of a marine and a quarter the effectiveness. Make him break out the heavy bolters to take you down... and use your DR and Brightlances to make sure those dies ASAP. Thats the key to kickin marine buttocks.

 

That being said.... if anyone ever wants advice on how to make a dead eldar casarole, Im always happy to help a wolf out.

 

@ TAVARR- I agree wholeheartedly. I too started in fantasy and its served me well ever since. That and battlefleet gothic, were an error can decimate a fleet. Every time you win, be thankful and check yourself for errors, every time you lose... well its just karma for when you woop someone.

[Vash113]

Reserve Eldar, is that the thing where the whole army opts to stay in reserves and arrive on Turn 2 thanks to taking 2 Autarchs? :jaw:

 

I never saw the usefullness of that, just a rather poorly thought out way to mess with noobs.

 

But like Grey Mage I can give a lot of tips on how to deal with Eldar, and Tau (though I'm not as up to date on the current trends with Tau).

 

Maybe talk to your friend about learning to use a general take all comers list rather than relying on tailoring to win, looks like he relies very heavily on his massed Heavy Weapons...

[Utsujin]

I think our glory days are soon to be at an end when GW beats us senseless with the nerfhammer. Not a bad, that's too mild. All the prices of special weapons and melee weapons will double. I actually just started using space wolves, because the playstyle fits my playstyle. Good in CC, but not TOO dominant, like an all zerk force, and still offers a good amount of shootiness to suit my needs. I love OBEL scouts, they didnt do much for me, but kill a crisis suit and help take out fire warriors so it freed up my grey hunters for a solid 2 objectives capterd in capture and control. I really think that the wolves are good, but not overpowered and many people have stated that we pay for what we get, which is fine. One grey Hunter with bolter, and frags is 3 points more than a basic marine who comes standard, so we basically pay those points for the special rules and true grit, which I hope they keep. I've played 2 games with wolves, and won both, alot on part due to bad opponent rolls, and me making good tactical decisions. Hopefully we'll stay around the same in the new dex.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

It has been my experience with space wolves that they do really well in small points games and in large points games. It's the 1500-2000 pt range where they really suffer for their lack of AT. At 2000+, the SW player can afford to take expensive exotic units like long fangs and LREs. Other armies can that can incorporate their AT into their line squads or just buy single obliterators (yay!) are much lower cost ways to include heavy weapons.

 

In small points games, you typically don't need AT, so your 40 blood claws with 8 power fists between them can kill nearly anything.

 

The only really uber unit I can think of is the Ragnar Terminator death squad with Ragnar leading 10 WGTs who all have runic charms, wolf tooth necklaces, frost blades and storm shields. Having my Daemon prince pulled down by a bazillion S5 power weapons that all hit his WS7 on 3's by a squad that he can't kill in return (cheaty storm shields). I can't complain, though. Every army has its uber units and I get to watch all the SW players in my player pool cringe at obliterators, lash sorcerers and Abaddon.

[Spacefrisian]

I never heard anyone say Wolves are broken around here. (only that they are horrible outdated and thats a fact).

 

As for those who would call us broken i would like to see their lists i guess they only wanted to add shiny things making their list rater weak than usefull. Which is easily beaten by a usefull SW list off course.

[Max_Dammit]

I dont take shiny toys out of the book for the boys in blue, and a rino only got 5 pt cheaper for me so thats no big deal, as four counter attack, we pay for it, and the fists on out BC's, they have a low WS so why should I pay more for a smaller chance to hit?

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Whenever someone complains about my Space Wolves, I just remind them that we are getting a new codex and soon and that most likely, whether it actually is currently broken or not, it'll go away with the new codex.

 

For example, the last time I played as SWs, I played against an Imperial Fist army and lysander and a group of CC termies assaulted my wolf lord (all alone, his retinue had been toasted). The wolf lord counterattacked with that obscene number of attacks . . . 7 I believe. And he went first because he had a frost blade and lysander and all the termies had thunder hammers. When my opponent saw how many dice I was about to roll for his attacks, he asked me why I had so many. I ran down the reasons, counterattack acting like a charge, wolf pelt, and so on. His only comment was "wow, you'd better enjoy that while you've got it, because its so gone when you get a new codex." And he smiled and I smiled and I rolled the dice. He definitely thought 7 attacks on the countercharge, which beats what he'd have if he initiated the charge himself, was a little over the top. I actually tend to agree. But he had the presence of mind to know that this situation won't be around for long and not to get worked up about it.

 

And lets be honest, the counterattack and wolf pelt rules do overlap and it WILL be gone with our new codex. It is more powerful than it needs to be. I don't think that one thing makes the list broken, but I can completely understand it when opponents go "um, huh?" when they come across that situation.

[Grey Mage]

I can agree... and I dont mind people who say "wait, hows that happening?". A request for information, even a request to see it in print... that I can deal with. Its the occaisional attempts to tell me I cant do it because its not in codex Space marine that I cant stand.

 

Its only happened a couple of times, but all three of those people are on my "moron" list... as they all kept saying it after I explained that I wasnt playing codex space marine, but space wolves.

[Long Fang]

Their reply was "Don't bring 4 PF". :)

 

 

Only 4? I've taken to WGPL's with twin powerfists :D

 

I get 'broken' or 'cheese' all the time, not my fault dual lash of submission doesn't wrk on WTT's when i roll lots of 6's :D

My Wolves haven't been beaten at my current gaming club, I win most and draw a fair few. The dude that tends to call Cheese on me forgets tho that he's been playing less than a year and I've had my wolves for over a decade.

 

I have always found tho that no matter how, quote un-quote "broken" a list is if your opponent is a good chap then even a loss can be fun.

[Vash113]

Well in that situation Grey Mage there's not much you can do but bring out the exterminatussock, some people just need a good thrashing. :)

 

Anyway so the Wolf Peltl works oddly now to our advantage, other wargear doesn't work at all, Wolf Totems and the Wolf Helm of Russ are obvious examples.

[Grey Mage]

Wolf Totems is a bit of a sore point with me as the item theyre based off of still exists... it just got a minor shift in name.

[Utsujin]

So, what do you guys think what will really happen when we get our new dex? Maybe wolf pelt will offer an additonal attack to the charge, so we dont sit and be charged, and a price raise a bit as well? I hope they dont take out the power fists for the blood claws as well, thats what makes them good in combat.

[Grey Mage]

Ive been waiting for the fabled new codex for five years now.... Im tired of speculation. Ive even made a few "new" codices for us... as has half the forum. Lets not drift off in that direction.