Sould Grinder VS Daemon Prince

[Brother Barkus]

So I'm looking to expand my daemon army and I wanted to get the B&Cs' opinion on which is the better or preferred choice and why. I'm leaning a little more toward the Soul G. for versatility and heavier tank hunting.

[eyescrossed]

It really depends what you're looking for.

[GunnarRedsun]

while i don't play daemons, i do end up playing them, and i must say that i find the daemon prince more annoying. generally the monsterous creature can whether more heavy fire than the vehicle can, at least such is my experience. heck, i had one battle where my long fangs took out the soul grinder right away, while the daemon prince lasted 4 turns of their pounding, before finally falling in combat in turn 6. still, thats just my experience.

[==Me==]

DPs have a lot of flexibility, multiple wounds, and are generally more expensive.

 

Soul Grinders are cheap, put out great shooting, have fleet, and can stomp faces in combat. AV13 helps a lot here.

 

I'd pick Soul Grinders more often than not unless I was playing an army that lent itself to DPs (lots of multi-wounders, Fateweaver, short on anti-tank, Epidemius, that sort of thing).

[Raptor1313]

It is a bit of a question.

 

The first part is 'what does your army need'?

 

If you're looking for a cheap skull-basher in melee, a 135pt Soul Grinder with no upgrades is, out-and-out, nastier than any Daemon Prince for the build. It fleets, fires off a flamer and six bolter shots, then cranks out S10 attacks in melee.

 

There's not a lot that stands against a Soul Grinder in melee outside of high-strength monstrous creatures (....might not want to fight a fresh Carnifex or Wraithlord), as AV13 vs a single powerfist is not much of a contest for the Grinder.

 

Soul Grinders also eradicate heavy armor in melee, as S10 vs. AV10 is, ah, not too pretty.

 

So, what's a DP offer?

 

A different type of versatility. High-strength AP1 weapons (rail guns, melta weapons within 1/2 range) can eradicate a Soul Grinder in a few shots, as S8 + 2d6 = penetrate about half the time, same with a rail gun. And, enough S9 shots will eventually crunch through that armor.

 

But, a single rail gun shot or meltagun shot on a Daemon Prince? Take an invulnerable save.

 

A shooty DP will never outshoot a Soul Grinder. For 160, a Tzeentch DP can have a 4++, Gaze and Bolt. BUT, it also ignores half the melta shots, and can benefit from Fateweaver's re-rolls. Good luck ever getting a soul grinder a cover save.

 

DPs are also going to be more expensive. A decently-equipped melee-oriented prince is 150-160ish, and wings jack it up to 200+.

 

The other durability problem is that DPs are T5 or T6. T5 means you're vulnerable to massed bolters, and T6 won't keep you safe from lots of high-strength gunfire (read: Lootas or Eldar, or even guard). T5/6 also means you still have to worry about powerfists, and something nasty like Thunder Hammer Terminators can still end you in a round or two.

 

What's the rest of your army have/need?

 

Som nastier DP builds I've seen include...

Mark of Tzeentch, Gaze, Bolt, for 160

Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies, 155 (215 with wings)

Mark of Khorne, Iron Hide, Wings, Blessing of the Blood God 185

 

At the end of the day, it's about what capabilities your army needs, and what tradeoffs you're willing to make.

 

Money-wise, the Soul Grinder's kit is $55ish, and you can probably get a decent Daemon Prince stand-in for about $30-40.

[Captain Malachi]

I'm definately a prince fan, however this is because it fit's my army better than soulgrinders. If you just want a hard heavy choice, the soulgrinder will probably be your best bet since it costs less pointswise. But princes have a lot of advantages that Raptor has pretty much summed up. What is the rest of your army like?

[Brother Barkus]

@ Cpt. Malachi- My list usually includes Fateweaver and a Blood Thirster backed up by 1 squads of Plague Bearers and 1 squad of Daemonettes and 1 of Blood Letters. I'm looking to expand up to 1500 pts. and figured I needed some fire support for the army and here I came with my query. I'm still not sure of Daemon Princes B/C of their price points wise and as mentioned by Raptor the Grinder can be taken out by dedicated anti-tank. So as you can see I'm at an impasse on these two units.

 

but with the boost for vehicles in 5th I'm not sure a DP could make up for the lack of the Soul Grinder's anti-tank and ability to generate a blast template to take out hordes.

[Captain Malachi]

The prince is generally better at anti-tank actually. But if you want fire support go with the 'grinder.

[Vassakov]

With Fateweaver and the Thirst I'd go for a Prince - with that sort of Monstrous Creature power, you're opponent will be hard pressed to stop even one of them before it gets stuck in, and doing so will probably leave the other two unscathed. Also, remember that Wings means you can DS and hide, then fly over something to get at the meat of the enemy.

 

A final point is that a 60mm base is reasonably safe, wheras the Grinder has a footprint something like the size of Wales, IIRC. So a good 50% of the time it'll end up in terrain, bellowing... well, not impotently but not exactly the holy terror of all things either.

[Brother Barkus]

So what do Daemons have to handle hordes? I know we have flamers and the Sould Grinder can wittle the enemy (orks) down and allow your CC units to mop up what remains. I guess I mean to ask what a DP has to offer since he will be overwhelmed by small arms fire or a flurry of attacks by orks.

[eyescrossed]

Horrors.

Big squads of Horrors.

[Raptor1313]

vs. Hordes?

 

Virtually the whole codex is meant to kill troops.

 

Daemon Princes aren't bad in melee; Soul Grinders can crank out blast templates and S10 melee bad vibes. Anything in the troops slot other than Plaguebearers will murder in CC (or range, for horrors). Really, the question to ask yourself with the Daemon Codex is 'how do I kill armor outside of melee?" Pretty much any Slaanesh or Khorne choice in the codex will murder infantry in melee, and most Tzeentch units will do so at range. (Ignore the Fast Attack section of the codex, as it's a bit 'meh'.)

 

Daemon Princes do best when supported. You have to learn to time your assaults so that no one's acting solo. A pair of daemon princes are potentially nasty in melee if they're working together. You just have to learn what they can and can't tangle with.

 

In the OP's list, I would pick up Daemon Princes and keep them near Fateweaver. Then again, Fateweaver doesn't want to be close to assault, and he's got to be within 6" of you to give you the re-roll, and if he is giving you the re-roll, then he's going where you go. If you're going into assault, Fateweaver is Darned Close to that assault.

 

As for busting armor? Soul Grinders auto-penetrate most vehicles in melee with S10 vs. what's usually AV10 in the rear. The S5 daemon prince (or S6, since you should bring Might) needs a four on 2d6 which is pretty reliable, but not as reliable as 'automatically penetrates'. Vs the few AV14 rear targets, Grinders are still superior with S10 vs AV14. S6 + 2d6 vs. AV14 is less certain, with average penetration being 13 (S6 + average 2d6 of 7 = 13, or Not Enough).

 

@Vassakov:

1/6 chance of immobilization if you hit terrain, so 15%, not 50%. Not bad odds, but it's a pain when it does happen. The shooty grinder doesn't care as much, at least. The Daemon Prince takes a wound 1/6 of the time, and gets his invulnerable save against it. So, a DP in terrain gets wounded about 10% of the time, or 7.5% of the time if it's a Tzeentch DP.

 

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised you're running both Fateweaver AND a Bloodthirster at 1,000 points. That's a minimum of 583 points in two MCs; and doesn't leave a lot for much else.

 

At 1500, I'd think about a couple of cheaper DPs if you're into keeping the two MCs you already have. Honestly, in terms of bang for buck, I like Nurgle/Armor/Noxious Touch/Cloud of Flies. 155 for a T6, 3+/5+ guy that wounds on 2+ with power weapons, and often re-rolls that.

 

Season with maybe a short plaguebearer squad for objectives, then supporting troops.

[Brother Barkus]

Yeah I'm aware it's a bit much but I love the lord of change model and unfortunately they are less than desirable and Fateweaver gives me so much more. Plus the daemon codex struck me as following the motto "Go big or go home." I think I'll run a a DP with MOT and BOC for anti-tank and a Nurgle one then as Raptor suggest add some Plague Bearers. Demonzilla is a party I think everyone should try.

[Raptor1313]

Oh, Daemonzilla is what drew me to the codex. My lists all feature lots of heavyweight abuse, or mini-MCs (bloodcrushers...but they're FUN! For me.)

 

I'd make the Tzeentch one Mark, Bolt, Gaze. He hangs around Fateweaver, and the Nurgle one just maims things up in CC.

 

I think it'd be a nasty go big or go home list, but make sure you've got enough units to mostly drop your big nasties in wave one.

[Brother Barkus]

Here's a quick list including Daemon princes. Opinions on its synergy with the rest of the list would be great.

 

Blood Thirster-250

 

Fateweaver-333

 

Elites:

Blood Crushers#3-120

 

Troops:

Daemonettes#12-168

 

Blood Letters#8-128

 

Plague Bearers#14-210

 

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince-140

MOT

BOC

 

Daemon Prince-155

MON

Iron Hide

Noxious Touch

Cloud of Flies

 

1504

 

This list appears evil to me but you gentlemen may say otherwise.

 

Thanks fro the advice so far.

[eyescrossed]

The Bloodthirster needs Unholy Might and Blessing, but otherwise, it looks good.

Too bad you can't reroll FNP with Fateweaver.

[Brother Barkus]

It's fun to dream :tu: Unholy might seems a bit unneccessary but I may be wrong. Anyways, thanks especially to Raptor and Cpt. Malachi for the help I think my question has been answered.

[Raptor1313]

Unholy Might goes on the Bt for a couple reasons...

1) always instant-kill T4 models. Like, oh, marine HQs and Ork Nobs.

2) Auto-penetrate most vehicles on the charge. S9 + 2d6 > AV10, all the time.

 

#2 is a big factor, as daemons simply CANNOT deal with a lot of vehicles or dreadnoughts. (Just look at your book, and ask what can damage AV12 or 13. It's not a big list.

 

Hint: see 'fiends', and the HQs.)

[Brother Barkus]

Hmm maybe I'll take out the Daemonettes and add a Soul Grinder. That will help with the anti tank and I'll see if I can find the pts. for the unholy might.

[Mutt-Man!]

Soul grinders for their surprise pie plate delivery. Feels like you would be using swooping hawks with their ankle-grenades. Except your blast is like a battle cannon round.

 

Daemon prince's deep strike closer for the templates they spew, if you want a similar (riskier) shock.

 

I prefer prince's, though. Got to have some tough stuff for the first run!

[Captain Malachi]

I'd drop a few plaguebearers (14 is a little overkill......or, overstay anyway) to get might and blessing on the 'thirster, and try and up the size of the 'letter unit or turn all your troops in to dedicated objective campers (i.e. plaguebearers).

[Brother Barkus]

Allright here's a quick remake which I think will work out better. Hopefully this list will take the advantages of both princes and soul grinders for a mean combination.

 

Blood Thirster-275

-Unholy Might

-Blessing of Khorne

 

Fateweaver-333

 

Elites:

Blood Crushers#4-160

 

Troops:

Plague Bearers#7-105

 

Plague Bearers#7-105

 

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince-160

-MOT

-Bolt of T.

-Daemonic Gaze

 

Daemon Prince-175

-MON

-Iron Hide

-Noxious Touch

-Cloud of Flies

-Aura of Decay

 

Soul Grinder- 185

-Phlegm

-Tongue

[Captain Malachi]

Drop aura, it's rubbish, and don't ever take tongue and phlegm on a single 'grinder. Once you've dchanged that you can get 4 more plaguebearers or something.

 

It's a little late for more in depth advice, sorry.

[Brother Barkus]

It's cool I'll make the neccessary changes. Hmm maybe I should give the princes wings....

 

Blood Thirster-275-Wave 1

-Unholy Might

-Blessing of Khorne

 

Fateweaver-333-Wave 1

 

Elites:

Blood Crushers#4-160

 

Troops:

Plague Bearers#8-120-Wave 1

 

Plague Bearers#8-120

 

Heavy Support-Wave 1

Daemon Prince-170

-MOT

-Bolt of T.

-Iron Hide

 

Daemon Prince-155-Wave 1

-MON

-Iron Hide

-Noxious Touch

-Cloud of Flies

 

Soul Grinder-160-Wave 1

-Phlegm

 

There we go this one should do it.

[Captain Malachi]

:P Told you it was late last night, forgot you could get wings for 60. If you drop hide from the Tzeentchian prince (a 4+ INV is usually enough) and a plaguebearer from each squad you can get wings on the Nurgle prince, definately a sound investment.