Chaos without Heavy Support

[minigun762]

I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the first things I build into any list I'm making is the Heavies. They're the big fun scary guns and tanks that seem like they'd kill the majority of the opponent's army.

 

However, with the understanding that Chaos' basic troops are superior to other armies elites and that much of the main anti-tank jobs can be done using Elite or Fast units, I find myself stepping back and asking whether or not a Chaos army without any Heavies is viable?

[sonsoftaurus]

It's certainly doable - for every HS unit you don't take, you can add more power-armored nutters moving up to melta/flamer/chop the enemy up.

 

But most of Chaos' HS choices are just so CHEAP compared to a kitted-out squad, which is one of the big reasons you see them so often. Defiler/Vindi or ten bare CSM? 3 Oblits or kitted CSM squad for 30-40pts more? Once you have a decent # of troops units already, you generally get more bang for your points buck out of those HS units.

 

But, it's certainly doable. ^_^

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I often run with no heavy support, especially when running double daemon prince. In general i find terminators can cover it all as well while being a lower profile target than a defiler or vindicator and being more able to support my troops in close ranges.

[davidren2401]

As an IW player I shudder at the thought of going to war without my heavy support. I take 4 in a 2000 point army if you count my termie's transport that they don't use as a transport. Without heavies I really can't see chaos being able to take on proper armour (AV 13+) at range. Flying Princes with bolt of change I suppose but I use my HQs to maim my enemy's elites not tank hunt. That's an Oblts/Havocs job.

[soshuro_tenchi]

Like Davidren, I would not go to war without my HS, but I guess it could be a valid option.

You could always use chosens, raptors or bikers as tank hunting options, but I don't think they would be the best bang for the bucks choice.

Oblits are a no-brainer IMO, they can kill anything and are quite resilient themselves.

[Mutt-Man!]

30 Bikes, 3 Icons of Nurgle, 6 Flamers and 3 Powerfist Champions cost me a fantastic 1290 points. Being able to say you have a 3+ cover save against high powered weapons, 3+ save against anti cover weapons and tougness 6 against small arms fire? Priceless. A few sorcerers on bikes with gift of chaos and some basic marines with meltas and some daemons or combi-melta terminators to abuse the icons and call it good.

 

I royally angered a dude with a bunch of sisters of battle where he relied on "double strength" melee weapons for his strength 3 ladies. He rolled too many 2's and 3's.

 

I also amassed 97 enhanced chaos space marines under fabius bile, fitted with all 12 meltaguns for 6 troop choices and 6 power fist champions in a 2500 point force. A funny thing when you spread your units just right, their 24" fast skimmer rule isnt fast enough to jump over and escape.

 

Making specialist forces are fun, and compounds the pressure when someone isnt used to facing your style.

[Cale]

I pretty much always have three heavy support slots filled. I play a vindicator pretty routinely, and I use 105-point predators with lascannon turrets a lot as well. Chaos Marines do everything well except damage at long range. For that, I use my heavy support slots, but I generally try to keep my HS selections cheap. 145 points for a Posessed Vindicator is the most I've spent yet.

[chillin]

anything below 1500 pts I rarely have any HS. At 1500 I usually have 1 HS (2 oblits). At 1600+ I usually add a second HS (a LR if I'm going assaulty, a vindi or dakka pred if I'm going shooty).

In 5th ed. rules I think you could do fine w/ no HS at all.

[minigun762]

Without heavies I really can't see chaos being able to take on proper armour (AV 13+) at range.

 

I think most people's answer to that is a combination of Chosen, Terminators and Raptors all armed with Meltaguns and Power Fists.

In 5th, the best way to knock a heavy tank out is up close and personal due to the volume of cover saves when you try to snipe things at range.

 

EDIT: In general what our Heavies give us is range. Range is good, but a lack of range can be compensated by speed. Jump infantry, mechanized infantry, deepstriking, outflanking are all ways we can get around a lack of range and still come to grips with units that are either fast moving or far away.

[Cale]

A lack of range can be compensated for by speed, but not very fully. I mean, a pair of meltas on raptors or bikes can hit from 24" inches, but that's nowhere near the 54" of a lascannon predator. Good chaos anti-tank is very, very short ranged. It is still the best available, but sometimes a 24" shot--an 18" shot if you want the double penetration dice--is just not long enough. Often, in fact.

[Mutt-Man!]

Short ranged anti tank? I must be delusional. No way, unlimited (always can)deep strike combi-meltas, combi-plas, and reapers ripping the rears and sides of any vehicle no matter the distance. Save for if its been spared by lots of defending units surrounding it or heavy terrain.

 

Aside from that, we have an elite twin-linked lascannon model. "Wait what?" .... Deddicated Transports... Terminator Transport~.

 

We get heavy support as an elite choice. But I'm sure he didnt mean that, and the short range havocs with special weapons also set aside.

[Zeruel]

I don't use any Heavy Support ever in my Night Lords army. I use quite a few Raptors, a squad of Chosen and a Squad of Terminators then the rest is all mechanized Chaos Marine squads.

[Rain]

It's doable, but obliterators have proven to be my most all around useful unit so I would never leave them behind. These guys have done everything from frying expensive HtH squads with plasma cannons to beating down an avatar in close combat. Never leave the battle barge without em.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I used to just run Raptors w/Lord and Rhino CSM with some drop-plasma Termies. But Vindicators are so good at killing hordes (as well as pretty much everything) that I can't pass them up. Two in each list.

[Aidoneus]

I think that, while it certainly can be done, there's no real incentive to do it. In small games, sure, maybe you want to save points and focus on Troops. But once you get up around 1500 or more, you have plenty of points to go around. And yes, obviously your Troops will form the solid core of your list. They will do most of the grunt work, and will do it well. However, our Heavy Support options give us something our Troops simply can't: cheap, long-range killing power. We don't take HS to define our list; we take it to complement our Troops, and keep enemies from out-maneuvering us by playing to our weaknesses. After all, if we have a well-balanced list, there is no weakness to play to! :P

[Zhukov]

I do it sometimes if I take 2 princes and multiple squads of zerkers and plagues, but I often miss the long range support of at least one unit. I just like that I know I have some fire support :P so mostly I take at least 2 oblits.

 

But it is doable, but you indeed need something else which can quickly take a tank out. The problem with that is that if you use 1 of 2 raptor squads w/ 2 meltaguns, they can be taken out before they even shot. So you probably also need to use termies and chosen indeed. But why so much effort, just take heavies :P

[minigun762]

Alot of really good information so far.

Overall it seems that most people believe that the big benefit of Heavies is not really about their intended target as much as the big range bonus they give to what is otherwise a close range shooting/assault army.

 

If thats the case, it further supports then idea that the Obliterator is a terrific buy and that Defiler's and some Predators are also worthwhile investments simply because they all provide a long range punch to keep the opponent honest.

[Cornelias]

on the flip side of the coin we have vindicators which i find myself using alot more these days. using them to spearhead your rhino assault forces your opponent to choose between them, crossing the board with 3 rhinos and 2 vindis can give them a pretty big headache.

[Democratus]

I agree with the above. Range is very important when playing against armies with fast transports - Eldar in particular. It may not be possible to get any of your Meltaguns close enough to a skimmer moving 24-36 inches a turn.

 

Obliterators are to Heavy Support what Daemon Princes are to HQ. They are efficient and deadly both at range and up close. The only reason I ever exclude them is when my fluff doesn't support it. And then I always feel their absence.

[minigun762]

on the flip side of the coin we have vindicators which i find myself using alot more these days. using them to spearhead your rhino assault forces your opponent to choose between them, crossing the board with 3 rhinos and 2 vindis can give them a pretty big headache.

 

Yeah but oddly enough Vindicators, while awesome, play more to Chaos' basic strength of being very kill under 24".

So its more a case of enhancing your strengths over shoring up a weakness.

[Zhukov]

I'm not really a fan of vindis either, cause of the reason Minigun listed and because I think they are quite expenisve at 145 points while 1 weapon destroyed still smokes them. (immobilized isnt good either with a fixed weapon and side armour 11...)

[Aidoneus]

I'm not really a fan of vindis either, cause of the reason Minigun listed and because I think they are quite expenisve at 145 points while 1 weapon destroyed still smokes them. (immobilized isnt good either with a fixed weapon and side armour 11...)

So don't give 'em Daemonic Possession. Marines don't even have that option, and they seem to like Vindicators just fine anyway, so it certainly isn't necessary. If you want cheap, scary, potentially-killy HS, take a naked Vindi. Hard to argue with a S10 AP2 pie plate for 125pts.

[GunnarRedsun]

Personally, with my Fallen i find no use for heavies until all other slots are taken up (which is somewhere above 3000). The reason for this is outflanking chosen with assault weapons and power weapon/fist. i find my units of chosen outflanking do better than havocs or anything else i might field, and cause so much panic that it gives my plague marines and noise marines a chance to get into combat/firing spots. on the other hand, with my khorne sisters, i plan on fielding 3 havocs with 4 plasmas and power weapons, and 3 chosen with 4 meltas and power fist on the outflank just to mess with people. so really i think it depnds on the force, and what your troops are. like 1k sons need it, my nurgle/slaanesh fallen don't. oh but khorne does. and they need havocs, with assault weapons. cause its wrong, and messes with peoples heads (especially flamers, run forward, roast, and then charge. oh it angers people to find they have the mark of khorne :P)

[the jeske]

I'm not really a fan of vindis either, cause of the reason Minigun listed and because I think they are quite expenisve at 145 points while 1 weapon destroyed still smokes them. (immobilized isnt good either with a fixed weapon and side armour 11...)

So don't give 'em Daemonic Possession. Marines don't even have that option, and they seem to like Vindicators just fine anyway, so it certainly isn't necessary. . Hard to argue with a S10 AP2 pie plate for 125pts.

 

one stun and it does nothing [for 125pt] . weak side armor means its much easier to pop it then LR [and people meta LR rush builds and those that dont will after codex IG] , it has to get close to the enemy and this means that rhino squads , bikers and attack bikes will have range to it [ and they are generally more of those then vinids . as sm playing bikes use 2 units and 2x2 attack bikes and there is no way your going to blow up f4 squads with cover with 2 vindicators] .

vindis do less dmg , then two oblits if there is any cover . the only thing vindis are better , then oblits is puting wounds on wright lords. only how long is a one gun tank without possession[or with] going to survive against an eldar army?

 

If you want cheap, scary, potentially-killy HS, take a naked Vindi

oblits are not potentially killy . they are killy [more killy in most cases]

[minigun762]

Vindicators are a gamble, they tend to be win big, lose big kinda of units because of their simple nature (1 big gun and short range).

Obliterators are more reliable but lack the maximum killing potential of Vindicators (2 Plasma Cannon shots will have at most 14.1" of surface area with 0 overlap, a Vindicator will cover 19.6" of surface area). Both get the same benefit from Lashing as well.

Vindicators have a slight advantage against Monoliths as they're almost immune to our typical Termicide squad tactic for AV14 whereas S10 and rerolling penetration will knock out Monoliths alot faster than LasCannons. Whether or not you should be firing at Monoliths is another question entirely.

 

EDIT: For me, this is why I like the Defiler, its kind of a compromise between the long range of the Obliterator and the pie plate of the Vindicator. Of course its easier to see and therefore kill than either but not everything is perfect is it?