Aidoneus Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Another thing the Vindicator does well is insta-kill stuff. With Str 10, it will insta-gib anything up to and including Toughness 5, which includes most non-monstrous models out there. This can be a great boon against multi-wound foes like Nobz and Characters. It also just has the psychological factor of being damned scary. You can use this to your advantage by forcing your opponent to either shy away from it or divert anti-tank towards it, thus putting you in control of the battle. I'll grant you, Oblits definitely have their advantages too. But that's not the same as saying the vindicator is strictly inferior to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1908678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Well, I still like the tanks. I like my tank-filled armies to be filled with tanks--and my armies right now certainly are. I could play obliterators, but that'd be less tanks. Even so, I do have some obliterator conversions finally in the pipe, and I'll be giving them a shot as soon as they're done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1908881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Another thing the Vindicator does well is insta-kill stuff. With Str 10, it will insta-gib anything up to and including Toughness 5, which includes most non-monstrous models out there. This can be a great boon against multi-wound foes like Nobz and Characters. so they instant kill nobs and lone IC[that should never run alone , so instant kill on them is kind of a hypothetical]. they dont instant kill nids . + if 2 vindicator tank dont wipe 2 nob bikers units on one turn then next turn they are dead. I'll grant you, Oblits definitely have their advantages too. But that's not the same as saying the vindicator is strictly inferior to them. well , but they are . they dont have bad sides . they are harder to kill , easier to hide , can deep strike [whats important against a few armies] . against some sm or eldar a vindicator can get 0 shot before being blow up [or stuned considering the idea of using them without possession] . It also just has the psychological factor of being damned scary. You can use this to your advantage by forcing your opponent to either shy away from it or divert anti-tank towards it, thus putting you in control of the battle. if someone plays with a list that has problems with 2 vindicators [without possession] ..well then he is not playing a very good army . I mean if vindis are scary , the LR redeemers are tanks of god , that never die and do super dmg when they reach your line . an army should be able to counter 4/5 tanks per turn [depending on the points] anything else is asking for trouble or playing a tac hvy army . Vindicators have a slight advantage against Monoliths as they're almost immune to our typical Termicide squad tactic for AV14 whereas S10 and rerolling penetration will knock out Monoliths alot faster than LasCannons. but when you play against necron you never touch the monoliths[unless I dont know you use loaded dice] . and If you mean LR its still easier to pop a LR with oblits melta+icon , then with single vindicator shot. Obliterators are more reliable but lack the maximum killing potential of Vindicators (2 Plasma Cannon shots will have at most 14.1" of surface area with 0 overlap, a Vindicator will cover 19.6" of surface area). well considering that mos to of the time you see a line of troops with 2" apart , its not such a big difference . specially considering the bad sides the vindicator has . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1909322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_wu Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Wow without heavy support I use 3 in my 1000 point list. I do this by two dakka preds and a pair of obliteratetors I like it a lot. Anyway I have not won a game with chaos where I took no heavy support choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1910416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 i have run 2x vindis alot lately and they have always performed well so i'll keep using them. far too many people aren't willing to try different things out for an extended period of time and rely on the word of people who haven't used them and hypothetically state how they think that unit would perform in comparison to others. if weak side armour is being stated as reason not to use them then certain people have no idea how to play the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1911487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_wu Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Why do you let the enemy get to your side armor when using a vindi anyway. you could assault those with marines form a rhino. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1911547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Why do you let the enemy get to your side armor when using a vindi anyway. you could assault those with marines form a rhino. how do you stop a drop pod coming on the side , or outflanking attackbikes ,aside for runing vindicators side by side and with rhinos on the outside?[but then there is still the back ]. far too many people aren't willing to try different things out for an extended period of time and rely on the word of people who haven't used them and hypothetically state how they think that unit would perform in comparison to others. if weak side armour is being stated as reason not to use them then certain people have no idea how to play the game. your taking the bad asumption that I didnt test them . the only units I never used in any list test /tournament/friendlly were spawn . And I dont mean one or two games . When we got the chaos dex we were testing 4 chaos lists at the same time rottating the troops/hvy support choices . We did that again when the codex sm got leaked [as we generally test all the set up for the top army builds] and vindicators were still were less effective . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1911805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Eck, different units will work better in different peoples armies. Oblits are scary sure, and always have the right tool for the job. Many people would tell you that vindicators are always the right tool for the job. Its all a matter of personal tactics and experiance. That being said dont bother trying to change jeskes mind, hes always sure of himself and usually has some reasons to back it up. That doesnt mean hes right in all cases, but it does usually mean that hes right in his own experiances. I think a vindicator is a good heavy support choice in a chaos army, however I dont see why anyone would take it when allowed the chance to take a vindicator with additional weaponry on top of a fleet of foot dreadnaught for only a small increase in price. Defilers anyone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1911830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 yeah i stopped trying to argue any case with the jeske ages ago, he's a big tournament player and that's a circuit i left ages ago. it's no fun and becomes boring playing against/with the same army lists week in week out. i'm a big advocate of getting away from that style of playing and back to the way the game was originally intended to be played. you can say the same thing about any choice unit including the much favoured oblits "what if a giant steps on it and squishes it" nothing you choose has a 100% chance to survive till the end of the game :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1911982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 it's no fun and becomes boring playing against/with the same army lists week in week out. half the time a tournament team is thiniking what army build and what armies will the other groups bring , what will be the house meta game + you always have special scenarios , different points [what kind of a means teams play with different armies at 1500 pts and with different at 1850 or 2k pts]. If tournaments were played with the same armies all the time people would stop playing after maybe a year. nothing you choose has a 100% chance to survive till the end of the game oblits almost always die , just like lash prince[if they dont then your opponent loses big time , just check what happens to a sm armies with 6/9 oblits and 2 lash , if it doesnt kill any of those till turn 4/5] . the thing is that generally oblits do more kills and have a better survival ratio . A one , maybe two shot hvy support for 140+ pts is not the best option , and for me its not even a good one , because its just too easy to counter . Also I didnt say that oblits are undieing machines of war . its not the 4th ed anymore , but its still easier to get a +4 cover for 2 oblits , then the same cover for a tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1912988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 half the time a tournament team is thiniking what army build and what armies will the other groups bring , what will be the house meta game + you always have special scenarios , different points [what kind of a means teams play with different armies at 1500 pts and with different at 1850 or 2k pts]. If tournaments were played with the same armies all the time people would stop playing after maybe a year. exactly why i stopped entering them, i was seeing the same lists all the time, it's an observation and a fact that you can't really argue with. bringing the subject back to the OP's question, would you for instance see a chaos army at a your next tournament with no heavy support? i doubt it very much as in a tournament setting that would be too much of a gamble. would it be something someone would try in a friendly circuit? yeah i could see someone trying and probably having some success with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1913285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 LR rush builds run no hvy support no free slots and no pts to buy it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1913693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastratedCow Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Wouldn't a LR rush build have to include, uhm, Land Raiders? And last time I checked the codex those were heavy support (even if they can also be bought as dedicated transports). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1913925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 Wouldn't a LR rush build have to include, uhm, Land Raiders? And last time I checked the codex those were heavy support (even if they can also be bought as dedicated transports). Yes normally. I believe what Jeske is getting across is that you're probably using all 3 of your Heavy slots for Land Raiders so you have 0 free ones. You can do a work around using Terminator's Land Raider, but then you're forced to buy Terminators (not a bad thing really). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1914166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Chaos without Heavy Support is certainly doable. My current incarnation of my Chaos army is entirely mechanized, and at first that would appear to mean Heavy Support is a necessity. Yet, I do fine with Elites and Troops, lots of Chosen and standard Marine squads with dual meltaguns or flamers. Of course, I actually do run Heavy Support, Havocs with quad special weapons, but my standard squads would function fine without them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1914565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Chaos without Heavy Support is certainly doable. My current incarnation of my Chaos army is entirely mechanized, and at first that would appear to mean Heavy Support is a necessity. Yet, I do fine with Elites and Troops, lots of Chosen and standard Marine squads with dual meltaguns or flamers. Of course, I actually do run Heavy Support, Havocs with quad special weapons, but my standard squads would function fine without them. Interesting? So in essence your army is a variety of CSMs from different parts of the FOC? It sounds like you're capitalizing on the general awesomeness of the basic CSM! How does your army work normally? Do you find that the Rhino and basic trooper is good enough for most games? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1914578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Interesting? So in essence your army is a variety of CSMs from different parts of the FOC? It sounds like you're capitalizing on the general awesomeness of the basic CSM! How does your army work normally? Do you find that the Rhino and basic trooper is good enough for most games? As I also play Loyalists, I find the best reasons to play CSMs are the reasons that make them unique. Of course, being the type of person I am, I have to be unique from both the Loyalists and the other Chaos players! Hence why I design my list so. Normally I run 4 basic Rhino squads, and 2 Havoc squads.The army does capitalize on the natural advantages of the CSM list, that is, speed and flexibility. There have been times when I wished I had more "colorful" units in my army, but that's precisely the point of the army - it has a Spartan feel to the list, very bare-bones. I stopped going to tournaments a little while ago, and so this may not apply. But I find that basic troops of CSM quality, combined with Rhinos and special weapons out the wazoo, can put up a fight against an army and are considerably adaptable. So yes, I feel that Rhino and Chaos Marine working together can tackle anything and everything pretty well. I'll admit that the only Ork player at our store runs a hybrid list involving a Nob biker unit and then horde Orks. The horde part doesn't give me much trouble - but a short range mech list struggles against Nob bikers. Hence, I have an unnatural love for meltaguns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1914631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
im terrible at painting Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 three vindis are just too amazing to be left out. simple. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1925485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 if the rumours ( and i hope they are) about planetstrike are true we may have to think about doing without certain units when planning our forces. different FoC choices for attackers and defenders would lead me to believe that the attacker would have limited heavy support options, although completely nonviable for tournaments as you couldn't make a set list this is something i'm very much looking forward to as i stopped playing touraments because of their static nature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1925581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I play a footslogging, Terminator-heavy Death Guard army. The only thing even remotely close to a HS would be a Dreadnought, but it isn't. I find that Troops choices (Plague Marines in my case) couple with deep striking Terminators really all but eliminates the need for a Heavy selection. Just my opinion, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1925632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 My thousand sons often go without Heavy support for numbers but if I feel like a change I sometimes LR with my 1ksons or take 3 vindis in a big wall which them covers 4 of their 6 sides and depending where they are (if they are right on the board edge I might risk that side exposed) I may put units that can block some line of sight in the hope of giving it the 4+ cover save. The other option is to find a nice bit of terrain XD I like it if this one bit of ruin that has a hole just about the size of the demolisher cannon is in my deployment it allows me to shoot but makes me very hard to shoot back XD and I get a 4+ cover save XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162186-chaos-without-heavy-support/page/2/#findComment-1926704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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