1750 points Chaos daemons v nids

[lesdiablesrouge]

Not posted a topic on here before so I hope I have the right place. Anyway I'm playing a 1750 point game with my relatively new chaos daemon army and was wondering what peoples thoughts were on the best options to take against a nid army. Typically the guy I'm playing against takes 5/6 fexes, 1 winged hive tyrant, 1 hive tyrant with 3 tyrant guard, 2 x 3 man warrior squad and either gaunts or genestealers.

 

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[Mutt-Man!]

If you could take anything, answer his nidzilla force with a godzilla force (get it?). 2 Greater Daemons, 3 Daemon Princes, a bunch of lesser daemons including some nurgling bases in the first wave. Your units are potentially superior if done right, and you can outfight him properly I'm sure, just dont be too close for charging when dropping in. Try to drop in about 19"a way from them to lure them into your charge range. (They move+run/fleet)

 

If they are shooty carnifexes, dont hesitate and get in close to those.

[Captain Malachi]

Should be in here. But don't worry about that too much.

 

As for taking down tyranid MCs, we have one of the best units in the game for it, Nurgle prince with noxious touch, other upgrades as you like. Wounding him on a 2+ pretty much means you'll win any one-to-one fight, and we can take 3 :tu:

 

And as luck would have it, they're great against troops too :blink:

 

Edit- Why not post a list in the army list section and we'll see what we can do. :lol:

[Raptor1313]

Most of our MCs are pretty solid at taking down theirs.

 

Nurgle DP w/ Noxious Touch.

 

Keepers of Secrets would be quite nasty, as they'll hit any 'nid on a 3+, and wound on a 2+ or 3+ with Unholy Might. They'll also go first, and have a handy-dandy 4+.

 

Most 'nids will be able to get the charge in, though, as they're generally Fleet. They've also got a fair number of Beasts and/or Winged troops. (IE: Gargoyles. Gargoyles will ALWAYS get the charge.)

 

However, you WILL have to watch for Tyranid shooting. Bear with me, here, as some people think 'nids are pure assaulty.

 

Take the humble carnifex. Ok, not so humble. It comes in cheapo Elite flavor, and in the richer Heavy Support version. Now, you WILL see barbed stranglers on the heavy support models. These are S8, AP4 blast templates with BS2 on elites, and 3 on heavy support choices.

 

What does this mean? SCATTER. I don't care what troop unit you are. When you hit the ground, you hit the ground running. Don't get cute with horrors and decide to pop off a lot of shots. A good shooty 'nid army can crank out 4-5 of these S8 templates a turn. You WILL feel it.

 

On the bright side, one thing 'nids do very poorly is kill armor. A Soul Grinder, with some help, should be able to take out a Carnifex because it goes first. Tyranid shooting is either S8 large blasts, or a few S10 shots that can only glance close-topped vehicles. The Soul Grinder cares not about glancing hits (...usually, unless it's a 5 or 6). The Soul Grinder is generally immune to anything in the 'nid army outside of an angry monstrous creature.

 

Another excellent choice against 'nids is the Fiend of Slaanesh. Lots of attacks, and good initiative. Speed, as well, so you might even get the charge off.

 

Additionally, our Daemon Princes aren't too bad. They're on-par with hive tyrants in melee unless you see the odd, rare, CC-oriented hive tyrant. in that case, Implant Attack (doubles each unsaved wound) will hurt you.

 

Overall, their shooty units are the Hive Tyrant (either cranks out a lot of S5 shots. Figure on them doing a LOT of damage in shooting; 12 S5 shots at BS4 that re-roll wounds. Otherwise, it's 3 S7 shots and an S4 blast template). Warriors are also shooty; each of them can pack an S6 blast template on BS2 or 3. They're not as common a shooty choice, as a barbed strangler elite fex is cehaper in terms of money and points.

 

Zoanthropes are often shooty, with an S5 AP3 small blast, or a psychic-test S10, AP1 blast at shorter range.

 

Biovores.....don't get played, so don't worry about them.

 

Aside from that, their troops are nasty and assaulty. You might face Horde Nids, which feature lots of gaunts and some genestealers. Gaunts are scary only in numbers; Genestealers rely on being WS6, I6, S4 rending and having lots of attacks.

 

The biggest thing horde 'nids fears is No Retreat! If they're in synapse range and lose combat, they're fearless, and take it in the pants like we do.

 

'nidzilla is usually 5-7 monstrous creatures, with genestealer backup. If you can crunch through that many MCs, you're in good shape. It's usually shooty. It's pie plates of death. Assault them, bring Daemon Princes, bring fiends, bring the melee pain.

[sexiest_hero]

For some reason Daemonettes chew through tyranids, it's the only time I'd recomend them.

[Lord Eltor]

Fex vs soul Grinder: No way! A Grinder can inflict 2-3 Wounds, that is all. When the fex strikes back with S9 you will get armor penetrated for sure. Don't think of fexes with 2 Attacks. You won't be able to charge them easily. His fexes will have at least 3-4 attacks and a WS of 4 and some other biomorphs.

 

Grinders should better be shooting. As said before the Nurgle demon princes with noxious touch are extremely reliable in taking out fexes. In fact it is THE anti-fex-weapon!

[Raptor1313]

@Eltor

The basic shooty carnifex has 2 WS3 attacks. Elite shooty fexes have either a pair of twin-linked devourers and +BS, or a Barbed Strangler and a set of scything talons, for 3 attacks. It's still WS3, I1.

 

A Soul Grinder can finish off a wounded fex in a pinch, assuming you've knocked a couple wounds off. Actually, a Soul Grinder is reasonably capable of putting three wounds on a 'fex in a turn, between Phlegm and assault. It's a risk, but it's something to think about.

 

Melee carnifexes are a whole other game. I usually don't see them, as most people would rather lumber a fex at you and pop shots. An elite melee-fex probably has WS4, four attacks and bio-plasma for an additional one. A heavy support melee fex likely has d6+1 attacks.

 

I honestly don't see melee-fexes in any builds I'm used to going against. I see boom-fexes (elite w/ stranglers), Dakka-fexes (double devourers) and gun-fexes (venom cannon, barbed strangler, +BS and an extra wound) in builds I go against.

[lesdiablesrouge]

I have posted a list under army lists same heading with the list I was going to roll out.

 

One question that I have to ask, as someone has mentioned this, is if nids are within synapse range and lose combat do they take the extra wounds as with daemons? The person I'm playing says no as they are not actually fearless in their entry they are only treated as such - he has got away with this with everyone at the club he has played but i'm not convinced he is right. I have also noted from their FAQ that nids with rending claws/talons no not class as rending for their extra attacks eg tail - Which he has also been doing.

[Lord Eltor]

They do take extra wounds as demons do!

 

@Raptor1313: I play Tyranids for a long time now. With your additional conditions you are obviously right, you don't even need mathhammer for this. But as I said: In general you won't be attacked in CC by a shooty fex and you won't be able to attack him because he will be screened by tons of gaunts.

 

CC-Fexes are very useful! The so called Ninja-Fex for example with toxic miasma, +WS and I don't remember what ...

I love to use a 220 points CC-godfex which need to be protected from nurgle demon princes!

 

But you might be right ... Nidzilla is a frequent army type where my comment doesn't fit.

[Raptor1313]

You've got a point about getting into CC with a carnifex, as they ARE likely to be screened. Either that, or there's a genestealer counter-charge waiting behind them, and that's just not pleasant unless you're a Soul Grinder. A nurgle DP vs 8 Genestealers is, ah...

 

24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends, and...ok, nevermind, it's not so bad.

 

I don't really buy your CC-fex = useful argument, though. I won't deny that you can do some ridiculous damage against someone, what with the number of attacks they can crank out. However, you have to GET them into combat for them to be worth anything. They move 6", and run. That's an average of either a 9" move a turn, or 6" + assault. Not what we call fast. For that reason, and their vulnerability to plasma/melta/missiles, I don't really expect to ever run into many of them.

 

The 220pt godfex? A Godfex's impact is NOT a factor of its ability to get into melee and kill things. d6+1 attacks at WS4, I2, S10 is nasty, but it's NOT that killy. That's an average of 3-4 S10 wounds a turn, or a vehicle just gone splat. No, I think what a Godfex does is force your enemy to think around it. It's big, but it's slow. It's probably got 5 wounds at T7 with a hefty save and regeneration. Well, I know regeneration CAN hurt, but it also wants 6's to get wounds back. I can figure out where it's going and avoid being there, since I'm at least as fast as it.

 

Against other army types, especially if they're mechanized? CC-fexes run into the same problem we have: namely, how do I get over there and punch out that vehicle? If you've got enough guns, or enough mobility, a footslogging assault unit is never going to make it into assault. It gets worse in Table Quarters or Dawn of War. Dawn of War means that you'll have to cross nearly 3ft of table, which is 3-4 turns. Daemons get around this some by deep-striking, but the fact remains that moving 6" and running doesn't get you anywhere particularly fast.

 

EDIT: vs. some melee-oriented armies, you don't have the whole "Oh man, gotta run, gotta run," thing going on. However, those often have something like a PK Nob shielded by 11-29 Boyz, which means you're not getting to him before he punches out your carnifex or you've softened up the mob. Ironically, the Barbed Strangler is better here, too.

 

Plus, as Daemons, MCs are something I can kill. Bloodcrushers, fiends, flamers, Bloodletters on the charge, any Greater Daemon, and the Nurgle DP? Even Plaguebeareres give MCs pause, as the basic 8 plaguebearers drop a couple wounds on average on a Carnifex. A decently-built Daemon army can take down MCs. What 'nids really have heavily on Daemons is shooting (...largely Carnifexes) and numbers, I think.

[Castigator]

Learnt from painful experience I would recommend Soul Grinders over Daemon Princes when playing Nids. Devourer armed TMC's are more than capable of taking out Daemon Princes (or Bloodthirsters) in one round of shooting.

 

Against Nids I'd go with 2 Bloodthirsters, 3 Soul Grinders, 3 large squads of Plague Bearers (which can withstand the Nids Devourer shooting) and a few Blood Crushers.

[Wing_Knight]

Just thought i would give a little bit of advice on here while i know very little about daemons i do know a ton about nids (brother plays them and me too some times) a heavy CC-Fex has 2 base attacks + 2 for weapons + 1 for mace tail + 2 on the charge with tusks. Usually at WS 5 equivalent Str 10 and to get that it is add in a +2 save and an extra wound(total of 5) from bio morphs that comes to about 174 points. The one thing i would say is that while they may be scary they go at I1 so you will get to put some damage on first before he goes hopefully with the result of killing it before it can even gets to attack and it doesn't get an invul save so DP should be a good bet for taking it down IMO.

 

I think Raptor has the right idea in that you should be at an advantage when compared to nids the only thing they have going for them is their guns which is a problem but not one you can't solve with some swift action to take them out with your MC. Kill anything with a Barbed Strangler first though lol Large templates at str8 or 5 are going to hurt.

[Nozor]

Just to clear up something about Synapse here, Codex:Tyranids states that all Nids within 12" of the Synapse creature "are assumed to pass any Leadership based test they are called upon to make, other than psychic tests". It's not that they don't take their Morale check if they lose combat, they just always pass it. Kind of like Calgar's special rule, but without the ability to chose to fail it. As an aside, it is possible to build a CC-fex with 12 attacks on the charge (d6 from crushing claws + 1 from scything talono +2 from tusked + d3 from scythe tail), but that's leaving a lot up to the dice gods.

[Raptor1313]

I've not got my rulebook, but I believe that No Retreat!'s entry covers why Synapse is bad for 'nids.

 

As for Carnifexes....

The base fex is WS3, with the option to go to WS4. It can buy an upgrade to give you -1WS, though.

 

Though I hadn't given a ton of thought to the whole 'massed devourer' shooting that 'nids can put out. A Hive Tyrant's devourers can easily put 7-8 wounds on a Daemon Prince, even if it's nurgle.

 

They REALLY don't have much in the way of things to do against a Soul Grinder, though, outside of an angry Carnifex.

[Lord Eltor]

Math Hammer the Tyrant vs. Nurgle Demon Prince with Iron Hide. It is 2 Wounds.

 

What about attacking him with gaunts? He will kill 4 a turn but that is it. Though every MC has this problem.

 

I believe that you need CC-Fexes! Even if they don't arrive they help you to push around the enemy!

[Raptor1313]

Well, the MCs going into Gaunts will kill 3-4, then they'll force No Retreat! and pile up some more bodies.

 

And I'd rather take a carnifex that starts killing things on turn one and doesn't care how slow it is, rather than taking one that's going to shuffle forward and force. I'd rather push the enemy around with an S8 blast template from 36" away, or a blast template and a couple S10 shots.

 

EDIT:

Would you rather have a carnifex that cranks out 3 WS3, S9 attacks at I1 and an S8 blast template out to range? Or, one that cranks out 4-5 melee attacks at WS4, and gives the other guy -1WS?

[Lord Eltor]

I get your point, but a shooting fex will not be able to bring a Landraider or some Leman Russes into trouble. Never! And this is why it has a completely different role to fulfill. When you have the option to shoot then you won't run forward and shoot! If you do this on the other hand, the long range weapon is a waste of points.

 

@melee with gaunts and MCs: I was talking about the grinder. It will kill 4 gaunts AFTER no retreat-wounds!

 

I wish there were other demon players in my group! Id love to gain some experiences in fighting them with nids!

[Raptor1313]

I hope there are Thunder Hammer Termies in that land raider, as that's what they generally tend to carry. Plus, you're still dealing with the same problems of getting your fex shot to death, or otherwise not getting to the place he needs to be. An elite Boomfex really isn't that much less effective at killing armor than an elite gunfex. What's one attack less when WS and I don't matter?

 

Dealing with heavy armor is just one of the issues that both Daemons and 'nids have unless you want to punch it.

 

And yeah...you've gotta deal with the hordes of 'nids. Then again, that's about like playing any small army vs. a larger one. Focus your forces as best as possible, support each other, or watch a SOul Grinder step on ants for a whole game.

 

Think I'd rather support the Soul Grinder.