What makes a good Bike army?

[Resv]

Hello, if you have seen my posts around the good ole' Bolter 'n' Chain Sword you probably know my love of Bikes. Weather they be Chaos or Loyalists, I love the flexibility bikes can bring to an army. I have been running my "Pox Wind" Chaos list in just about every game lately (Chaos Lord and a unit of Bikes with a Nurgle Icon and a couple units of Plague Marines and Oblits as a core. Simple but powerful army I have found) but the fact that Chaos bikes can never score has always bothered me. With that in mind I have decided to try to build a Loyalist Space Marine bike troop list and try it out. I have been looking for advice around the forums and have found lots of scattered information but nothing that I would consider really solid. I am a subscriber to Warp Angel's wonderful Killhammer articles and I believe that there is much to discuss about what parts can be put together around a core unit, the Bike Captain, to make a super effective and unique army.

 

I am really interested to get a collection of sorts of peoples ideas, tactics, units and experience with this particular type of army. Enough that I would like to put together a Tactica on the subject for 5th Edition.

 

Some Basic Concepts:

-Bike Captains, in some cases, can be more useful than Khan because of the PRODIGIOUS about of Kit available.

-A mounted Command Squad can be a huge point sink but devastating due to the, again, HUGE amount of kit.

-How does one hold objectives with a Squad of Bikes?

-What heavy Support units make the most sense to take.

 

Everything is welcome!

[Paulochromis]

Check out Cale's input into this tactica --> Bike Tactics

It's 4th ed vintage, but much still applies. Of course, Expert/Skilled Rider has been nerfed, but the captain still has it and bikes cost less now.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Resv]

I have read it actually, though thank you for posting it here. In light of the changes in 5th Edition as well as the new Space Marine Codex I believe that a good portion of his information is out of date. That is part of why I started this thread, to have a fresh take on the viability and execution of a Bike army.

[night walker]

use your bikes for your troops and take speeder squadrons and attack bikes for the big guns and thunder fire as heavy suppport

[foster]

Will you be going for a pure bike army or will you have a mix of different Troops? I ask this because bikers are generally good at alot of things accept holding objectives, so maybe a tactical squad or two can help your bikers with that role.

 

Could you come up with an example list which you would like to field pls.

 

-A mounted Command Squad can be a huge point sink but devastating due to the, again, HUGE amount of kit.

You gotta love that priest.

[somogyi]

This is the 1850 bike list I run. I have only played 10 games with it and it is 50/50.

khan w/ moondrakken 205

Chaplin on bike digital weapons melta bomb

assault squad 10 marines, plasma pistolx2, power weapon, melta bomb 250

4 bike squads 8 bikes plasmax2 attack bike w/ multi melta power weapon melta bombs 315

 

I have discovered that outflanking is generally a bad idea. I run Khan with a bike squad and the chaplin with the assault marines. I used to run khan with the assault marines too but I decided it was too many points in one unit.

[ShinyRhino]

My bike list contains two tactical squads in Rhinos for objective babysitting purposes. Parkt hem on the objectivem and fire out of the top hatch with the heavy weapon and a bolter (if you have the range), plus the Rhino's stormbolter. Heck, you could buy an extra stormbolter if you feel like being nutty. The enemy will have to pop the Rhino, then shift your squad off the objective.

 

Pure bikes is hard to hold anything with, due to not being able to fit many in cover, and limited bodies before morale checks.

 

For heavy support, I like any kind of Predator.

[Warp Angel]

Bikes need some support in the hand to hand department. 2 HQ choices really isn't going to cut it. And they could use some "Hard" units to block LOS.

 

Good supplements to bikes include Assault Termies in a Land Raider, Drop podded Dreads, and as others have mentioned, Preds/Vindicators. The tricky part is that you need at least one Defender unit that ISN'T bikes to plant themselves on a home objective and generally make a nuisance/target of themselves.

 

And with Marines, that means Tactical Squad. Preferably with a Razorback or Rhino to again... provide cover and distraction.

[bt2278]

-A mounted Command Squad can be a huge point sink...

 

hmm... lets's compare normal bikes to mounted command squad:

 

 

Space Marine Bike Squad (5 marines)

- 5 tl bolters

- 6 base attacks

- 1 power fist (sergeant)

- 2 meltaguns

 

==> 185 points

 

Command Squad (mounted)

- 5 tl bolters

- 10 base attacks

- 1 power fist

- 2 meltaguns

- 2 additional attacks (chainsword+bp)

- feel no pain

(- lots of additional options^^)

 

==> 250 points

 

 

+65 points for doubled base attacks und feel no pain.

 

that's not exactly what i call a point sink... ;)

[foster]

QUOTE (Resv @ Mar 4 2009, 12:09 AM)

-A mounted Command Squad can be a huge point sink...

 

 

hmm... lets's compare normal bikes to mounted command squad:

 

 

Space Marine Bike Squad (5 marines)

- 5 tl bolters

- 6 base attacks

- 1 power fist (sergeant)

- 2 meltaguns

 

==> 185 points

 

Command Squad (mounted)

- 5 tl bolters

- 10 base attacks

- 1 power fist

- 2 meltaguns

- 2 additional attacks (chainsword+bp)

- feel no pain

(- lots of additional options^^)

 

==> 250 points

 

 

+65 points for doubled base attacks und feel no pain.

 

that's not exactly what i call a point sink...

 

Could you do that again but with max amount of modals (e.g. 8 bikers, captains and attack bikes...). I don't have my codex with me.

[Resv]

I do agree that it is only 65 points between 5 bikes and a mounted Command Squad, but then you get into Storm Shields and such. I tend to hate on Power Fists and would almost rather take Power Weapons. Then you can go into taking Plasmas or even more Meltas on top of that. Admittedly I believe that I am not the most frugal person when it comes to points. There is a big part of me that wants to outfit my command squad beyond all else with Plasma Pistols, Power Swords, and Storm Shields. Failing that, Meltas or Flamers, something where I can keep my points cost at a relative level. In my mind, a Command Squad should be a devastating force weather shooting or assaulting, keeping your Captain company all the while. Already having a Captain with Relic Blade, Storm Shield, and Hellfire Bolts along with what ever else (read: melta bombs, digital weapons) that might be needed, my HQ can be upwards of 500 points if I am not careful.

 

I was trying out a list for kicks yesterday which I will post here. The one real problem that I had has been mentioned here quite a few times, that is objectives. Playing three half games and two full we got to see how well a bike heavy army fields and the only real problem I have had is that holding an objective is a pain. Challenging and clearing were no issue at all, lucky rolls I am sure saw no bikes lost when assaulting into cover, but holding was so very difficult. Cover doesn't lend itself well to bikes and I couldn't keep more than two bikes in some of the terrain on the table. I kept wishing I could take Jump Troops as scoring units but alas.

 

List is as follows (no points listed as I am away from my book and we were playing for fun so exact numbers were never decided):

 

Mounted Captain:

Bike

Relic Blade

Storm Shield

Hellfire Rounds

 

Command Squad:

4xVets

1xApothicary

4xPower Weapons

5xStorm Shield

2xMeltas

Bike Squads: 2x

8xBikes

2xMeltas

1xPower Weapon

1xMelta Bombs

1xAttack Bike

1xMulti Melta

 

24 units for a core, expensive surely, but effective. I had no trouble charging and challenging in the Capture game we played. In the Objective Control Mission we had 4 objectives on our board (not uncommon so I am told) and through out all six turns I only managed to successfully hold one objective the entire game. I was pushed off 2 objectives losing one Combat Squad of Bikes (Sarg and Both Meltas included) by a Vindicator and following assault by one of his troop units. My only option was to try to challenge everything on the 6th turn which didn't turn out well as I went first and we ended in a draw. The bikes did count for quite a body count and every time he pulled out a new list, at least taking out most if not all of the Armor on the table. We were playing "counts as" armies. Something we do often to try different lists with out having to bother buying a new army every time we get an itch. My friend's Multi Vindi Death Guard List is our standard of measurement for objective games.

 

I don't know what call there is for a unit of Tactical Marines but I have been thinking of taking a small amount, combat squad or so with a Razor Back. Possibly two of these for measure.

[ShinyRhino]

What points level does that list work out to, Resv?

 

Looks like you ran into every problem inherent with trying to hold objectives with bikes. Keeping the unit in sufficient cover, lack of bodies to soak hits, longrange anti-tank firepower.

 

Tactical squads can do that for you. Tactical squads in any form of transport can do it even better. The opponent has to peel open the tank to start causing casualties to your scoring unit. Once they do, the tank hulk is now cover for your men, right on top of the objective. Sometimes I'm mean, and place an objective right out in the open for my opponent to try to take, while enduring concentrated fire.

If you don't like the tacticals, you could always go with scouts. But, scouts have no armored transport options, and are less effective when the fighting gets rough.

Yes, you could take two combat squad in Razorbacks. You get a heavy weapon platform, but it's no more durable than a regular Rhino, and holds fewer bodies. Bodies are what keeps an objective contested.

 

Up to you in the end though, you're the general!

[Resv]

Update for Points on the list above:

Mounted Captain: 195

Relic Blade

Storm Shield

Hellfire Rounds

Melta Bombs

Command Squad: 315

4x Storm Shields

4x Power Swords

2x Meltas

2x Bike Squad: 305(each)

8x Bikes

1x Sergeant

1x Power Sword

1x Melta Bombs

2xMeltas

1x Attack Bike

1x Multi-melta

Grand Total= 1120 Points

 

Now if we add in two Tactical Squads of 5 models each:

Tactical Squad: 190

5xMarines

1x Sergent

1x Power Sword

1x Melta Bombs

1x Melta

1x Razorback

1x Twin Linked Assault Cannon (Same points for Twin Linked Lascannon or a single Lascannon and two Plasmas)

 

If you take two of those then you end up with 380 which plus the 1120 above you get an Even Stephan of 1500. All in all that is not a lot of models on the board, 36 all in all. I am going to have to try this out tonight when I get off work. Guess I am going to use tupperware containers again for Razorbacks.

 

Does this sound reasonable at all? I could keep the Razorbacks in reserve and then bring them in occupy objectives or help unload with the Assault Cannons on a later turn. Also, would having no template weapons hinder this list?

[foster]

I would turn the two squads into one whole tactical squad and replace the two razorbacks with a Rhino. You have enough anti-tank in your army without the need of TL Lascannons or an extra squad of meltaguns. Like shinyrhino says you'd be better off with the unit that can soak hits. This may even free up enough points for additional upgrades (powerfists), a cheap HQ biker to support one of your bike units (chappy) or extra units like 1-2 attack bike squad, scout squad or whirlwind. I may be over-estimating the points left over but you get the idea. You still are able to combat squad them if you need them to.

[Resv]

I am kind of in the middle about this one. Having two Pieces of Armor fielded, I would suspect, is better than one. Then you get into the notion of Combat Squading and only having half a full tactical unit in armor and the rest outside of its protection. I do agree that there is need to soak wounds but I would think the extra Razorback with Assault Cannon, or other variants, would be very effective. The meltas however might be a bit over kill, flamers might work just as well depending on what you are facing. I just worry about having only one unit of Tactical troops even if you have an army in which every unit except HQ is scoring.

[Sgt. Corallis]

If you are looking for a unit that can hold an objetive, I would go for the full tac squad with rhino.

As Shiny rhino says, they are incredibly hard to shift from a position once there (unless targeted by focussed assault).

 

Also remember that you can't take any special OR heavy weapon in your tactial squad if they are less than 10 men.

[Aidoneus]

Got a friend who's been building up a bike force and using me as his playtester. From what we've seen, the bikers don't need any backup to hold objectives. The trick is to be fluid and constantly on the move. Basically, if it comes down to a game of "I'm here, now try to move me," you're going to lose. However, with bikers you can always abandon objectives you control to help out elsewhere, and then just shuffle back later. You can also dart around between different objectives, putting pressure where he's weak, and giving up hopeless battles over 1 objective he's camped on.

 

The nice thing about bikers is that you are very much in control of the game, so you'll get to decide where he can go. This means you can keep him off of objectives you don't want him on, thus keeping them open for you to go sit on turn 5. And if the game goes on longer than that, you can always leave an objective he's putting too much pressure on to just go sit on a different objective. Or you can rush non-Troops units in to contest objectives he has moved on to. Most importantly though, your speed means you will make him fight tooth-and-nail for every single objective, which most armies aren't necessarily prepared to do (most have 1-2 "camping" units for each, backfield objectives, and the rest centers around 1 main thrust forward).

 

The best place to start is the Biker Captain (Khan is too pricey unless your entire army is built around his Outflank ability) and 2 full units of Bikers. I'd go heavy bolter in each, with meltas in either 1 or both, and maybe plasmas in the other. Fist champ for each too. Divide 'em up with the attack bike and 3 regular bikers in one combat squad, and the champ, 2 specials, and 2 reg in the other. The former squad is going to be your long-range support, and will take objectives in your backfield. The latter will be your forward, aggressive unit, to take forward objectives.

 

These core units should be supplemented by very killy units, to sweep him off objectives before your Troops get there. My friend uses a command squad (fist, champ, medic, maybe 1-2 plasma) for his close combat, a unit of Sternguard with a few combi-meltas, and a pair of Vindicators. Also, in support, he has 2 Typhoons for a bit of long-range support. All this is at either 1500 or 1750, can't remember. Any higher and he adds another Biker unit, and then a third Vindi.

[Resv]

Yeah the ten men thing, didn't think about that. If you take a Razorback along you wouldn't need a heavy weapon anyway as you could take FAR more effective Twin-Linked weapons. Assault Cannon, as a for instance, can be over kill but are much more powerful than Heavy Bolters, against even MEQ.

 

To Aidoneus, by Champ do you mean Chaplin? I would have never thought of keeping your Sergeant with the Attack Bike rather than with the other Squad. Off the cuff, I don't like the idea of adding Chaplins as fearless isn't great when you have such a mobile unit. Much rather keep Combat Tactics and be able to move way out and then sweep back in on the attack.

[Paulochromis]

I think champ = sergeant

 

Given that one of them is an apothecary (NOT a veteran) and therefore can't take any upgrades, I'm curious how you model the command squad.

The other four can replace their chainswords with the power swords and two of them can additionally replace the bolt pistol with the meltaguns.

Taking the shields is no problem either, codex-wise, but they start to run out of hands, especially when riding bikes!

Do you mount the shields on the bikes?

 

I assume you know that you can't give the two non-melta guys attack bonuses for two weapons (power sword + bolt pistol) because the shield expressly forbids that.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Resv]

I did remember that one, I'm not super upset about it either because of the unit structure (I did omit the Apothecary's Storm Shield in my second list as well). Even managing 2/3 power weapon attacks per Vet and 3/4 relic blade attacks with my Captain you have 16 Power attacks on a charge and 11 attacks (NOT INCLUDING APOTHECARY) when locked in combat which should only happen if you chose to stay in combat or fail leadership.

 

As for modeling, I was have been experimenting with attaching the Storm Shield to the arm on the controls, someone once told me this is a must. For the guys with Meltas/Flamers/Plasmas I was going to have them holding it like any standard Biker, however I found these bits of, what look like, sheathed Power Swords which I was planning on gluing to their hips. It isn't perfect but it should satisfy WYSIWYG. I will post pictures when I get them to a more finished place.

 

Last night my constant opponent, and good Friend, met up last night after work and played two quick games. A Kill Point Game versus His Mechanized Sisters of Battle, which only made it to turn 3 before he gave up, and another 4 Objective Match against His Death Guard list. Big Twist of the evening? Since we had decided to try out the 1500 point list above He crunched some numbers and reworked a few things and managed to put in MY signature unit, a Mounted Nurgle Chaos Lord and 3 Nurgle Icon Bikers! The nerve! I switched out my Twin-Linked Auto Cannon for the Twin-Linked Plasma Guns and Lascannon on the Razorbacks as a whim and prepared for the fight.

 

The battle with the sisters saw all of his armor shot down by the huge amount of Anti-Tank and hist troops cut down by my Command Squad which shrugged of ALL, rolling very well last night, of his Melta and Heavy weapon attacks.

 

The Death Guard battle went about as I expected. I got an early lead because I went after his Armor first stranding his Plague Marines and managing to disable and wreck both Vindies. Ended in another draw, I would have had the win but he was very tough, he managed to challenge and we came away with one objective each.

 

I found the Razor Backs to be very flexible but weak defensively. I really did need heavy support though and Lascannon were a huge boon to my Bikes. I can really see an argument for keeping the half size Tactical Squads, but I also think a 10 man unit in a Rhino would be great to have in dense cover games.

 

I am really interested to get more opinions on other tactics or units that might have better synergy. I'm also waiting for Warp Angel to chime in again, ohhhhhh one can hope.

[Warp Angel]

Did somebody call?

 

The trick to finding me is to have a thread that says "killhammer" in it. I'll almost always track them.

 

My experience with Razorbacks is that they serve only a few roles well.

 

1) Long ranged fire support... you going to shoot the 40 point razorback or the 190 point tactical squad?

2) Advancing harrassment... blocks LOS as it moves across the table, camps on or near an objective, and begins the 1" shuffle while sniping at the enemy. They have to try and kill it, buying one of your more important units a turn free from enemy fire. More than one if you are lucky. More than one carnifex has met it's doom to the lascannon version as the enemy tried to bypass it - so they can't ignore it either.

3) Armored support for Land Raiders and bigger tanks. It either provides cover or soaks those melta hits that might prevent you from deploying your big boys where they're needed.

 

I never rely on Razorbacks as transports for anything other than short sternguard or (very rarely) devastator squads. If a full tactical gets reduced to a small enough unit, it can go for a ride, great! If not, it's just a light tank used as a Hunter or a weak Firebase.

 

5 man tacticals suck from a Killhammer perspective. They have a substantially smaller K1 due to no special or heavy weapons, and half the D2 of a regular tactical squad. They're incapable of creating a kill gap on their own, and are only useful in maintaining one by tying up poweful CC units that you want to catch in the open for a round of shooting. I avoid them at all costs, and only ever field them as a combat squad when I MUST tie up the enemy. I see no point is spending 90 points for a speedbump when for 100 I can have a Thunderfire and 85 will get me a dakka predator.

[Marlow]

The best place to start is the Biker Captain (Khan is too pricey unless your entire army is built around his Outflank ability) and 2 full units of Bikers. I'd

Khan is going to cost you about 40 points more than your Captain for which you gain "Furious Charge" and "Hit and Run". Both these powers allow you to make a very good melee based Bike unit. Outflank is a bit of a wash, but then I am not a big fan of Combat Tactics either.

 

Update for Points on the list above:

Command Squad: 3154x Power Swords

If you are taking the Storm Shields I would replace the Power Swords with Lightning Claws. They cost the same and since you can not get the extra attack you might as well have the reroll to wound. Personally I think once a unit get to cost more than Terminators you might as well take the terminators so my Command Squad is

 

265 Command Squad - Bikes, Apo, Champ, 3x Vets with Power Weapons.

That way they all get four attacks on the charge and most of those attacks ignore Armour.

 

Now if we add in two Tactical Squads of 5 models each:

I would rather take the ten man squads for the extra weapons.

Have Sgt, Melta/Flamer and 3 Marines in the Razorback and the other five stay with the home objective and shoot the Missile Launcher.

[Warp Angel]

Personally I think once a unit get to cost more than Terminators you might as well take the terminators...

 

Amen.

 

I might make an exception for a Khan based bike command squad with attached chaplain, only because I've seen the pain it can bring. But I'm not willing to commit two HQ choices and expensive command squad with a limited number of models to being a quarter to a third of the points in my army. Not enough D2, even with the Apothacary.

[Resv]

Personally I think once a unit get to cost more than Terminators you might as well take the terminators

 

I gotta say I disagree in this case. In a mobile bike army a unit of Terminators that are unable to keep up with unit they are suppose to be escorting is silly. I TOTALLY AGREE if the Captain wasn't mounted. Even as expensive as a Mounted Command Squad is, they have better toughness, better mobility, and a better invulnerable save. Terminators can carry better weaponry and have a better armor save for certain. FNP should be considered as more small arms mitigation than be all end all immortality. I have been playing Death Guard for quite a while now and I have lost units by the score from over confidence. No matter how you split it, a unit of tough Killing units in an army of Cleaners is worth while.

 

I do see what Warp Angel is talking about however. What I am doing with my two Razorbacks is just buying Razorbacks, I haven't really been thinking about troops at all. But now I am thinking that the heavy support from the Razorback is really worth having. The 5 man speed bump is weak I agree, but I fear a 10 man squad isn't going to be put to work enough to make it worth it in this list. That isn't to say not worth it at all! I am just trying to be conservative with my points and my thinking on the matter is that two bits of light armor that can also score can be worth it in such a mobile army. The disconnect of course is that in an army that is build to kill armor you present two giant "kick me" signs.

[Resv]

So I decided to simplify and use a Rhino with a full Tactical Squad and for some heavy support I have been playing with the idea of adding a Dreadnought. An entrenched Tactical Squad is a very fearsome thing, I don't know why I was so fast to distrust it. What I am running into now is lack of heavy support.

 

I think there is a suggestion here for the Biker General on the go. Maintaining proper heavy support will supplement a fast moving unit with limited ballistic range really well. This list is built for anti-tank, but being able to soften up a target from range or selectively snipe out that one piece of armor can really add to your units over all effectiveness and all Bikes to do what Bikes do best.

 

What heavy support makes sense for a Bike army. Dreadnoughts with their considerable close combat ability, weapon load outs, and smaller size? More Attack Bikes, just as fast but with a limited weapons selection. Predators or Land Raiders? What do you think would work the best?