What makes a good Bike army?

[Paulochromis]

How heavy is heavy.

If you want platforms for heavy-ish weapons, many people swear by landspeeders (AC, MM, HB, HF, ..)

Of course, others swear AT them.

White Scars fluff is AC pred with NO sponsons

 

Cheers, Paul.

[foster]

If you had need more anti-tank I would tell you to get 2-3 multi-melta Attack Bikes and if you needed anti-horde then I would say heavy bolters instead. But since you already have enough fire power to cover both targets and just want more heavy-firepower for it's own sake then go for the modals that can carry special weapons; demolisher cannon, whirlwind, thunderfire cannon or lots of flamer templates to nullify cover saves. There are plenty of units that can carry special weapons, so just pick what you like the look of.

 

IMHO Ironclads/Dreadnoughts make good weapon platforms especially when drop-podded to bring it's weapons to bear on any target unit. While being Fairly tough to kill it will become a top priorty target for your opponant especially when it lands in thier gunline, hopefully dividing his anti-tank from your other units.

[RolandTHTG]

So I decided to simplify and use a Rhino with a full Tactical Squad and for some heavy support I have been playing with the idea of adding a Dreadnought. An entrenched Tactical Squad is a very fearsome thing, I don't know why I was so fast to distrust it. What I am running into now is lack of heavy support.

 

I think there is a suggestion here for the Biker General on the go. Maintaining proper heavy support will supplement a fast moving unit with limited ballistic range really well. This list is built for anti-tank, but being able to soften up a target from range or selectively snipe out that one piece of armor can really add to your units over all effectiveness and all Bikes to do what Bikes do best.

 

What heavy support makes sense for a Bike army. Dreadnoughts with their considerable close combat ability, weapon load outs, and smaller size? More Attack Bikes, just as fast but with a limited weapons selection. Predators or Land Raiders? What do you think would work the best?

 

I'm the starting player that Aidonieus mentioned earlier. You want a long-range weapon able to soften targets or snipe armor? One Answer:

Land Speeder Typhoon.

Each typhoon has two shots with a missle launcher, frag or krack, 48 inch range, and can stay at extended range playing the bob-and-weave game. I use two in the army, and each has proved their worth many times over.

Remember if you are fielding a full tactical squad, you can have a heavy and special weapon providing support to the rest of your army.

[Resv]

Heavy support is a difficult choice in an expensive list like this. I do agree with Wyrm that the Tactical Squad's heavy weapons choice will pick up some slack, but is that enough. I always seem to favor symmetry in my army lists, with a focus on redundancy. This bike list has shown me how vulnerable armor can be to such a mobile force. Knowing this I tend to get a little hesitant about adding more expensive units. Lets take a look at some of the options available.

 

Dreadnoughts: At first I thought that this was the best unit available for an all or mostly Bike Army. Between the available weapons and the survivability there is a ton of flexibility which is a perfect match to a bike army. The Close Combat ability is also something that fits nicely into a bike army.

 

Whirlwind: This unit targets a major problem with Bike Armies, and that is infantry in cover and any horde list. With so much anti-tank available to a bike unit, since you can take two special weapons as well as a Multi-Melta equipped Attack Bikes, this is a great unit to take to take care of that pesky Dark Eldar Darklance hiding in the ruins.

 

Land Raider: A Land Raider is a Land Raider. No matter how you look at it, one of these on any battle field is rolling death. Better yet you can pack it full of Terminators or better yet a scoring unit to help with a Bike units difficulty holding or taking an objective in cover.

 

Land Speeder: I think Wyrm has laid out how this unit can be useful. While not the most survivable unit in the Codex it can keep up with your bike units .

 

Razorback: This is one of my favorite units in the codex as it is fairly cheap and can be outfitted with quite a few choices in weapon load outs. Warp Angel made a great point about the roles that one of these can play. Yeah, only being able to take 6 units is kind of a bust, but I have been having playing around with different tactics to use in support of forward bikeunits.

 

Predator: I am not a huge fan of Predators but to be honest I haven't used them in enough battles to really understand their usefulness. It seems like you have to spend a lot of points to really make the best out of this unit.

 

Vindicator: Not much can stand in the way of two of these though the range of the main cannon can be a little of hindrance with the over all mobility of this army.

 

These are just some casual observations and I am really interested to hear what others think about possible choices to best supplement such a mobile list.

[Jack-hammer]

I've been using Khan and Tigurius (as a Stormcaller), and bike command squad, troop bike squad with fist and 2 melta, two tactical is rhinos with plasma guns/cannons, two attack bikes with m/m, and a c/c terminator in a landraider, this leaves me points for either two land speeders or one dakka pred.

 

I bring everything on in my third turn park on objective with the tacticals. Who then lay down fire support while the bikes and terminators dissect the opponent. Against mobile armies I have been waiting until the fourth turn to turn up so I can cause mayhem and take objectives.

 

It white scars designed around the outflank rule and has worked well for me.

 

I havn't used any dreads yet. But with a drop pod could be great addition.

[ShinyRhino]

I'd recently considered multiple Whirlwinds as support for a bike army. You essentially pound on the enemy objectives from afar until you're set to crash in with the bikes. Heck, if you have more than one objective to take, slam one with the Whirlwinds til your bikes get there, then change your fire calls to the other one until your bikes have either taken the first, or are ready to move on. You can park your Whirlwinds near your "home base" to contest, or just provide extra cover for your scoring troops.

[Hymirl]

And intresting discussion I have a few points I'd like to add.

 

Khârn, I'm really really undecided about him.

I like having a unit outflank as a little surprise to use as flexable backup although I don't overuse outflank, its gone badly doing that in tests. Combat tactics is good but with bikes, I find that you fall back so far you spend the whole of your next turn getting back where you were to start with... that is if you're not too close to the table edge to be too worried to use it. I'm convinced that its a great option for infantry heavy armies but less so on bikes so having outflank is a mild bonus for me.

 

What he really shines at is leading a squad. Furious charge and Hit and Run, its like having the old index astartes in a can! On the charge it gives a squad real combat punch and then gets them out of combat so he can do it again, plus it means that you can negate the biggest problem of not having combat tactics (being able to escape tiresome combats). On the other hand a regular guy is cheaper and deals more predicable damage with either a relic blade or lightning claws.

 

Bike command squad, last time I used one of those was under the index astartes. However new rules they're back and still packing a punch. Led by Khârn they're going to bring on a lot of pain. I'd go for ignoring stormshields by and large though in favour of keeping them cheap and cheerful as possible. Go wild on options and its going to go badly, standard is a handy upgrade to have as it stops units running away and I tend to find that without one you need to avoid the table edge like the plague if you don't want to risk a large unit running off just because they rolled an unlucky test when within 15" of your baseline.... doesn't always happen since ideally you spend more the battle in the opponent's half of the table!

 

Also its a bit irritating that the apothacary can't have any upgrades at all... but there you go I guess.

 

One question I have I'd like some opinons on is squad size. As a long time player I've got all my units set at the old max unit size (5 dudes plus attack bike) and I tend to have the natural feeling that this is a good size for a bike unit to be. Not too small to be fragile, not too big to being unweildy. Yes I miss out on combat squads flexabilty but on the flipside I get more sarges and special weapon options.

 

Razorback: This is one of my favorite units in the codex as it is fairly cheap and can be outfitted with quite a few choices in weapon load outs. Warp Angel made a great point about the roles that one of these can play. Yeah, only being able to take 6 units is kind of a bust, but I have been having playing around with different tactics to use in support of forward bikeunits.

 

I could hug you, really I could! I've long since been a lover of Razorbacks, and while my cheeky 6 man las/plas squads are replaced with full units with freebie missile launchers the faithful razor is still there reinforcing the battleline... in fact with combat squadding its carrying much more guys than it ever used to. I've cut the lascannon razorback from the list as I can't squeeze in enough tacticals, I'd prefer to have the full ten so as to have access to the special and heavy weapons or not at all really.

Been switching between a Whirlwind (surprsingly effective as a direct fire weapon) and a dakka predator as fire support... not made a decision there either!

 

Fun trick with Khârn around is to outflank a cheap Razorback with half a combat squad that can hop out and use a flamer and a combi-flamer to lay out a bit of quick surprise damage.

 

Typhoons, yeah they look good but they're expensive and made of paper. I've been running a pair and find they're rarely making themselves worthwhile... compared to a cheap multi-melta suicide speeder I'm not convinced they're worthwhile additions. I'm dropping them from my list in favour of something a little different. Or maybe just more bikes...

[Resv]

To digress back to the usefulness of a command squad, you could look at them as I do, equivalent to a unit of super fast Terminators (with FNP). Important to note that they are WAY more expensive when kitted out but alas that is the fate of most every elite unit. Just like Terminators, they are theie to keep up with my Captain and provide as much hitting power as he does in the form of Meltas (or other special weapons) and Power Weapon Attacks (I have been using Lightning Claws lately for the wound re-roll). At this point I insist on the Storm Shields to protect the unit from blast and heavy weapons so that one lucky set of blasts doesn't kill off the entire unit leaving just my Captain. With all of this added up you get a unit that can sport 3+/3+/3+/4+ saves when turbo boosting. While by no means immortal, they do last for a while and fill a useful role as a Killer unit in an Army of Cleaners.

 

In the last few games I've played, with my Best Friend and Constant Opponent, I tied fielding just about everything under the sun when it comes to Heavy Support role. The only thing he and I have been able to agree on is we wish Loyalist Marines could take Obliterators, that would be the hands down best flexible unit to complement such a fast moving army. Failing that we have been playing with a final 1500 point force with a full Tactical Squad with upgraded Razorback and a Whirlwind on top of the 1120 points of HQ and Two Bike Units. The more I play with Whirlwinds the more I like them. Being able to really clear out or damage just about every infantry unit is a really nice complement to a Bike unit.

 

I would like to discuss a Tactic that I am sure every Bike General has used but I think could use some thought from the community. That tactic is the simply not taking any objectives while holding only 1, or at max 2, and only challenging and harassing the entrenched forces. The only thing I actively go after when I play this list is Armor. After I have popped it I shoot up the passengers, if there were any, and then move on. I find myself doing this with out thinking about it. I avoid outright Terminators and it seems I never really deliver a stand up fight in any battle I have been a part of. I am just wondering if this is common. SO!

 

Question: How do you engage enemy units with your Bikes?

[ShinyRhino]

I would like to discuss a Tactic that I am sure every Bike General has used but I think could use some thought from the community. That tactic is the simply not taking any objectives while holding only 1, or at max 2, and only challenging and harassing the entrenched forces. The only thing I actively go after when I play this list is Armor. After I have popped it I shoot up the passengers, if there were any, and then move on. I find myself doing this with out thinking about it. I avoid outright Terminators and it seems I never really deliver a stand up fight in any battle I have been a part of. I am just wondering if this is common. SO!

 

Question: How do you engage enemy units with your Bikes?

 

I'd actually been thinking about this exact thing last week. I was thinking about how beneficial it would be to deploy only one objective in your own deployment zone, and then throw all the rest as close to the enemy as you can, or at least spread them away from yourself. That way you can actually USE your bikes' speed to get to them, or to do drive-bys along a line of objectives. Whirlwinds would really help this, as you can hit the objectives you're not firing your bikes at, then switch.

[Froman]

Been working with an All bike list now for a number of months. Its been pretty effective to date.

And when I say all bikes, I mean it. I have settled on ten man (8+Assault Bike) for all tactical squads.

Worked with Khan for a while, but have decided to drop him as he just wasn't pulling his weight. (and as someone pointed out to random with Outflank)

I was running him with a command squad with Apoth, CChamp and nothing but power weapon upgrades.

While they were deadly against MEQ, I've moved away from them as they were the same price as a full 10 Tactical Bike squad.

Plus, people seem to either have a unit to deal with it (Deamon prince(s) or Nobz Bike Mob) or they are just overkill.

 

I have starting to go lighter on the melee, with just a Captain with Combi-plas/PF, a Standard Sarg with PF and a Lib on bike with 'Doom' and 'Nullzone'.

Basically enough to get me out of combat when necessary. But with four/five full Bike squads of firepower you can very easily bring a lot of firepower

to bear on your target of choice. Few army can match your mobility.

 

My personal strategy has been to treat the full bike squads as a very mobile tactical squads and they have performed amazingly.

With a mobile Multimelta they can easily deal with tanks and with all the TL bolters they can mow down troops.

When you start to add in a mix of the assault weapons (Plasma, Melta AND Flamers) you have what I have found is a very tactical army.

 

I have tried Typhoons, but found them to have little synergy with the bike list, as with the number of bikes I field and the fact I wanted to keep

the speeders in the back the targets were often getting cover saves against the krak missile shots. Maybe I'll revisit them in the future, but I doubt it, bike mounted multimeltas are way better when you've got four or five hidden in 'mobile tactical' squads.

 

The last thing I'll throw out there is that I continue to use my Scout Bikes (small squad with PF and meltabombs) They are great at

keeping my opponent honest with their deployment. I typically want second turn and if they force me to take first them the Scout Bikes force them

to deploy their armor in a well protected position or suffer a torpedo melta bomb attack or on lighter armored vehicles a PF charge on turn 1. Never underestimate what a PF can do on the first player turn of a game.

 

As far as how to engage enemy units, bike squads are great shooters, not great HtH units, so I've been working on mass short range firepower and avoiding screening your own units while doing it. Key is to segment your opponent since you can quickly react to the battle field and they most likely can not. Melee should be avoided in many cases as bikes are far better at shooting (another reason to avoid Khan and just keep a normal Captain for combat tactics)

 

Ravenguard 6th Company

[gdeathlegion]

Can someone explain to me why bike squads are considered to be bad HtH units?

Relentlessness is next to godliness.

 

bikes can't travel up floors, so your opponent will stick objectives in buildings making the game no fun for a bike army.

Other than that I suggest filling out your heavy support slots and bringing a unit of scout bikes, a unit of landspeeders, and your best friend: the land speeder storm. Throw in a drop pod or two with stern guard or dreadnought, and you've got a tough, highly mobile army that can harass and annoy your opponent all day.

[Resv]

I think that most people hate on the CC ability of Bike because of their cost more than anything else. An expensive unit that have only 1 base attack isn't all that great anyway, but most people remember that Bikes are Relentless. On top of this they also come with standard twin-linked bolters which really ups their killing potential. As a basic troop unit you can't get much better but their cost is the biggest weakness.

[white radish]

Can someone explain to me why bike squads are considered to be bad HtH units?

Relentlessness is next to godliness.

 

Why would you run Bikers for HtH? Use Relentless to stay out of HtH if possible.

 

There are better HtH units in the Space Marine army (Assault Marines amongst them), and there are better Biker units in HtH (such as Chaos Bikers & Ork Warbikers & Ork Biker Nobz)... there are also cheaper Biker Powerfists in the Space Marine army (Scout Bikers), or you could use that LS Storm to deliver a PFist as well.

 

Sure, if you're charging Tau Battle Suits, Bikers are great at HtH. Otherwise, they are expensive mobile shooting units that aren't worth bogging down in assault.

[Resv]

Do you keep your tactical units out of assault in every game?

 

Yes there are better assault troops in the Codex but there isn't a single unit that can do what bikes can. Assault Troops are COMPLETELY different and really can't be compared. If anything you SHOULD use bikes to assault because of Relentless! With an attack bike in tow you can lay down A LOT lot of fire including two special weapons and a heavy weapon before assaulting. Using relentless to stay away from assaulting is useful sure, but you can do tons of damage with the additional assault. Delivering all of this with a fist or power weapon at 18 inches. Assault Troops can move up to 12 and assault but they can't put out as much fire power as a unit of Bikes.

 

Scout Bikes have lower stats so that beloved power fist has a better chance of missing. A land speeder storm is kinda in the same vein, yes you can move quite a bit but you are subject to vehicle rules. Also you can't disembark and assault the same turn.

[white radish]

Do you keep your tactical units out of assault in every game?

 

Yes there are better assault troops in the Codex but there isn't a single unit that can do what bikes can. Assault Troops are COMPLETELY different and really can't be compared. If anything you SHOULD use bikes to assault because of Relentless! With an attack bike in tow you can lay down A LOT lot of fire including two special weapons and a heavy weapon before assaulting. Using relentless to stay away from assaulting is useful sure, but you can do tons of damage with the additional assault. Delivering all of this with a fist or power weapon at 18 inches. Assault Troops can move up to 12 and assault but they can't put out as much fire power as a unit of Bikes.

 

Tactical Squads mainly lay down fire. There are better ways to initiate or absorb an Assault than to throw your Tactical Squads into assault, even if circumstances might dictate otherwise. We don't have uber-grit Chaos Beakies, and even Chaos Beakies have better options than to throw CSMs into assault willy-nilly.

 

Yes, you should be flexible, but the point of Relentless on Loyalist Bikers is more to stay out of assault IMO. I'd rather run Chaos Bikers with MoK if I am serious about throwing expensive T4(5) units into assault.

 

Assault Marines are far more efficient than Bikers & deliver far more attacks if I need a mobile assault hammer, and Scout Bikers will get there faster.

 

Scout Bikes have lower stats so that beloved power fist has a better chance of missing. A land speeder storm is kinda in the same vein, yes you can move quite a bit but you are subject to vehicle rules. Also you can't disembark and assault the same turn.

 

Why put a 5e cost PFist on every single unit? I hardly see them as beloved anymore. You're already running units that are far more expensive than a Tactical Squad. Keep the PFist on the units that will most likely use them, and just put a Meltabomb or some other utility item on everyone else.

 

Scout Biker Sergeants & Scout Sergeants still have WS4, so unless the Scout unit is wiped, the PFist strikes at the same WS as every other Space Marine except HQs, Telion, the Honor Guard Champion (I think), and Venerable Dreads. Also, the LS Storm is Open Topped... the whole purpose of the LSS is to deliver a small unit of Scouts into a larger assault, IMO. If they're going to tie up your Bikers, dump a PWpn-y LSS team onto them with the LSS's Cerberus Launchers.

[Resv]

Tactical Squads mainly lay down fire. There are better ways to initiate or absorb an Assault than to throw your Tactical Squads into assault, even if circumstances might dictate otherwise. We don't have uber-grit Chaos Beakies, and even Chaos Beakies have better options than to throw CSMs into assault willy-nilly.

 

So, I guess I am a little confused by this. Basic Tactical Units are great all around fighters, why only use half of their potential; they can hold their own in all sorts of situations. From what I have been gathering from your posts, you don't actively chose to engage in assault unless that unit is only built for assault.

 

Yes, you should be flexible, but the point of Relentless on Loyalist Bikers is more to stay out of assault IMO. I'd rather run Chaos Bikers with MoK if I am serious about throwing expensive T4(5) units into assault.

 

Few problems with this statement. First, Chaos marines can never be counted as troops. This is a big deal for me because this thread is about the tactics of all or mostly bike armies. Secondly, it doesn't seem like you play a bike army at all. They are a Cleaner unit as discribed by Warp Angel's excellent Killhammer articles. They Are great for sweeping up infantry units in their path. Think about this, you can drive up and shoot 2 flamers, 12 Twin-Linked Bolter Shoots, and 3 Heavy Bolter Shells. Follow that up with an assault with all of your attacks. Keep in mind that Bikes are the only Relentless unit in the Codex that can sweeping advance as well.

 

What bikes allow you to do is never BE assaulted. You can pick and chose when to engage best for you.

 

Assault Marines are far more efficient than Bikers & deliver far more attacks if I need a mobile assault hammer, and Scout Bikers will get there faster.

 

As I said above, Assault Marines can't really be compared to Bikes. They fill two different roles in the codex. Assault troops are great for assaults and I agree that they make the best Assault Hammer. I'm not trying to say that Bikes can assault better at all. What I am trying to say is that completely avoiding assault is a waste of points and potential.

 

Why put a 5e cost PFist on every single unit? I hardly see them as beloved anymore. You're already running units that are far more expensive than a Tactical Squad. Keep the PFist on the units that will most likely use them, and just put a Meltabomb or some other utility item on everyone else.

 

I don't keep a Power Fist on every unit, they are expensive and I agree that they can be a waste. I have Mult-Meltas for armor more than anything else. Melta Bombs are really limited in their use and you only get one shot with them.

 

Scout Biker Sergeants & Scout Sergeants still have WS4, so unless the Scout unit is wiped, the PFist strikes at the same WS as every other Space Marine except HQs, Telion, the Honor Guard Champion (I think), and Venerable Dreads. Also, the LS Storm is Open Topped... the whole purpose of the LSS is to deliver a small unit of Scouts into a larger assault, IMO. If they're going to tie up your Bikers, dump a PWpn-y LSS team onto them with the LSS's Cerberus Launchers.

 

It isn't so much the Weapon Skill 4, it is much more about the poor armor saves. Your Land Speeder Storm can only carry 5 Scouts and that isn't much to stand against much if your only WS4 unit is hitting on a Initiative 1. You basically purchased a unit to go out and die. An expensive unit too with adding in that Power Fist. Sure your enemy might lose 2 leadership but you have a greater chance at losing 5 troops. And only 5 Scouts doesn't really constitute a Tar Pit unit, I never even combat squad Tactical Squads because they aren't more than a speed bumb.

 

All of this aside, the main point is that completely avoiding Assaults with your main unit can really limit your killing potential. Bikes can be very effective in the Assaults phase allowing you to create more of a kill gap. I suggest you might take a look into reading the Killhammer article on Reserves, Target Priority, and Army Creation for a bit more insight.

 

But lets be honest, I can toss out all of the facts and observations I want and it probably isn't going to convince you.

[Jackelope King]

A land speeder storm is kinda in the same vein, yes you can move quite a bit but you are subject to vehicle rules. Also you can't disembark and assault the same turn.

Yes they can. Land Speeder Storms are open-topped :huh:

 

Though you're absolutely correct that a Land Speeder Storm Scout Squad has about as much chance of winning an assault against anything tougher than Tau Fire Warriors as I have to knock out a professional boxer. LSS Scout assaults need to be coordinated with tougher units, essentially giving the enemy a further -2 to their Leadership and making the enemy all but certain to fall back if you win (and if you picked the right companion for the assault, then it's not if, but when you win). Scouts are bullies, and bullies work best in groups. They don't win fair fights and aren't supposed to: they're supposed to kick a poor sap while he's down.

[Resv]

I didn't see that they were open topped. Kind of a big gaff there.

[robdark1]

what make a good bike army,is really how you play that army to began with. i present a two ideas that i thought of yesterday while i was playing codex dark angels all day.

mostly bike army should have ether well rounded bike that are ether anti inf or armour depending were you play in the world. some people have preferense to anti tank because the amount of marines or armor that has been played lately. so lonely do we leave are bike to attack on transport or armor that has fire power we let that unit die to early in the game.

while reading about combat squad really make the army very nice to play when you can pull double the punch in an army were not all the pressure is on the whole unit of bike but a split up of pressure as people like to call it.

 

now on to the second part of yesterday thinking about what bikes a good army commander ability to make effective call on the spot ot win or lose a game solely based on experense that he as for him self. i not saying that i would ever ask anyone to do this but play as reckless as possilbe for about 3 to 4 weeks after play smart. when you see the difference of aggressive behaivor that were you play a bike army. other thought would be support with rhino based inf possablity assault squad in drop pod or rhino's aka depending on the person prefrense.

once again i point a third point on the table. not everyone like playing bike with transports because of how slow there troops based units are having to rely on armor to get across the

table. while average cost of sternguard squad coming out of transport is not cheap does add firepower that is more spread out instead of focus on one unit but two.

 

after all army that are a fully bike based army are a bike disaventage when it come to play a table game were a 6x4 table is the standard game and point games over 1500 point make it hard to play these game really well...

[Resv]

The above is a bit hard to understand. I like the idea about playing recklessly for a few weeks and then finding the perfect blend of strategy and aggression.

 

Another thing to point out is that Bikes are seriously hampered in any pre-5th edition off shot Codex. They are more expensive and they can never be troops, wxcept in the case of the Raven Wing. Raven Wing falls prey to costs though and a full army could possibly leave you with nothing to support your forward bikes. I mean no offense to any Dark Angel players out there, and I have seen how effective the RV can be, it is just a comment on cost.

 

Playing with additional transports isn't a big deal really either. I back my Bikes up with armor and a tactical squad in a rhino every game. The thing is, if your opponent is going after your Armor then he/she isn't targeting your Bikes with heavy weapons. In all of the playing I have done over the past few months with my List I can honestly tell you that the most successful Bike Armies are never made up of 100% Bikes. They feature a sold for front of Bikes sure, but they can back it up with heavy firepower.