IC, Units and Terrain Tests

[Gentlemanloser]

Quandry from a recent game.

 

A unit of Grey Knights, with two attached Inquisitors (both ICs) and an attached GK Brother Captain (another IC) started a turn in Terrain.

 

The owning player, at the start of his movement turn, rolled the difficult terrain dice seperatley for the unit and each IC, using 3d6 for the ICs and 2d6 for the unit. Wanting to move each IC individually, and detach them from the unit.

 

Should there have been just one roll, at 2d6?

 

I'm of the opinion that at the start of the movement phase, the IC are still within 2" of the unit and are classed as attached to it, so move as the unit does. And that the value the unit rolled should have been used to move the IC's away from the unit so that they finish more than 2", if the intention was to detach the ICs.

 

Of course, this means that if you roll two 1's it's impposible to deatch any IC's (and could be difficult with rolling a 2, depending on directions taken).

[Ming]

One difficult terrain test for the unit, at the SLOWEST possible way.

[Souchan]

Seeing as they are still part of the unit until they move out of coherency, MTC's * means they lose it while attached to a squad that doesn't have it.

[nighthawks]

I can't see anythign that would force the ICs to take the same terrian test as the unit IF they are declared to be moving away, as detatching occurs in the movement phase, and thus they are 2 units (or more) for purposes of movement.

 

Possible houserules- if the ICs intend to move away or "detatch" from the unit, then they should be given their own movement roll (or each be given, if they are to move off seperately and not as an all-IC unit) but this has to be regulated so that they are not moved to a position where they are still w/in 2" of the unit but in a more advantageous position. So maybe a declaration of direction would be in order before terrain tests and movements are made. if insufficient distance is rolled and the units are still w/in 2", then they are still attached (a tradeoff, I'm sure).

[Gentlemanloser]

This was the reasoning of the owning player, and the cause for the post.

 

:huh:

 

But, arent' the IC's still attached until the end of the movement phase? In which case, as MTC is lost while they are in a unit, at best, if they get thier own roll, shouldn't it be at 2d6?

 

Direction of movement never needs to be declared does it? And there's no process of detachment. You automatically detach if you end more than 2" away.

[Steelmage99]

The way I see it, there is nothing preventing the ICs from rolling 3 dice.

There is a rule preventing them from moving any faster than the speed of the slowest model.

 

The ICs can roll however many dice they want, as long as they don't move any further than the speed of the slowest member.

 

Example.

 

IC roll 1,3 and 5. The rest of the squad roll 2,4. All member, IC included, move up to 4".

[angronn]

This was the reasoning of the owning player, and the cause for the post.

 

:)

 

But, arent' the IC's still attached until the end of the movement phase? In which case, as MTC is lost while they are in a unit, at best, if they get thier own roll, shouldn't it be at 2d6?

 

Direction of movement never needs to be declared does it? And there's no process of detachment. You automatically detach if you end more than 2" away.

 

Rulebook says that an IC can leave during the movement phase by ending more than 2" from the unit. So I suppose the problem only this: if a player decides to roll with MTC for the IC, they've bound themselves to move the IC more than 2" away from the unit, no matter what. At least, that's how I would play it. I suppose you could be hard-nosed and say that since the character doesn't technically detach until he is more than 2" away, he too can only roll 2D6 (no MTC).

 

There is a precedent for declaring direction of movement - moving into difficult terrrain (p.14 BRB). Declare before moving that you'll be going in there, and then roll for difficult terrain, even though not starting in difficult terrain.

[angronn]

The way I see it, there is nothing preventing the ICs from rolling 3 dice.

There is a rule preventing them from moving any faster than the speed of the slowest model.

 

The ICs can roll however many dice they want, as long as they don't move any further than the speed of the slowest member.

 

Example.

 

IC roll 1,3 and 5. The rest of the squad roll 2,4. All member, IC included, move up to 4".

 

Move Through Cover is a special rule that is lost by an IC joining a unit without MTC (as per the asterisked special rules). I know your explanation leads to the same outcome, but why complicate it?

[Gentlemanloser]

So I suppose the problem only this: if a player decides to roll with MTC for the IC

 

My question is can they even decide to do this?

 

The IC hasn't left the unit yet, so is still attached. And on top, they don't have MTC as we've both mentioned above.

[nighthawks]

simillar questions - IC on bike, or with jump pack or wings attached to a unit of infantry. obviously if they move with the unit they move at the speed of the unit, but when they choose to move away, do they not get their extra speed?

 

the MTC rule is (really) no different here. the big question is do they wind up 2+ inches from the unit, so as to have ACTUALLY moved away. MTC makes this a bit muddy as the rolls could make that difficult to impossible, where the other movement types I mentioned are free to move to full distance, even in difficult terrain.

 

again - so long as the declaration is made that the IC is moving to detatch, and winds up detatched at least to the ability granted by the dice gods, I see it as legitimate.

[Souchan]

simillar questions - IC on bike, or with jump pack or wings attached to a unit of infantry. obviously if they move with the unit they move at the speed of the unit, but when they choose to move away, do they not get their extra speed?

 

the MTC rule is (really) no different here. the big question is do they wind up 2+ inches from the unit, so as to have ACTUALLY moved away. MTC makes this a bit muddy as the rolls could make that difficult to impossible, where the other movement types I mentioned are free to move to full distance, even in difficult terrain.

 

again - so long as the declaration is made that the IC is moving to detatch, and winds up detatched at least to the ability granted by the dice gods, I see it as legitimate.

 

I entirely agree with that being the best way to play it(though not quite what they say), but the rules could have been clearer on it. . With the "Moves as the slowest member in the unit" rule MTC really shouldn't have had the * (Poor Mega armoured Bosses in regular boys units being forced to 2D6 when the boys go faster and he goes faster by being seperate and then MTC to catch up to them and then joining.)

[Gentlemanloser]

I still say no NS.

 

As the IC on a bike (or with JP) is still part of the unit *until* the end of the Phase (or rather after the unit has moved), they have to retain all the limitations of being in that unit.

 

So no MTC, and have to move at the units speed.

 

You can't declare you're leaving (nor attaching) any more. It's an automatic result of how your movement ends.

[nighthawks]

having reread these rules now multiple times, i'm going to give this to gentlemanlooser and co by RAW, though I disagree based on my belief of RAI - the wording seems to fall in their favor (though it does leave some gaps, they are not massive and begging to be toyed with)

[Frosty the Pyro]

I would have the models use their own movement when seperating, becasue if as you say they are still the same unit untill the movement is comlete then they could never seperate, after all whenever you move a model after the first they have to stay in unit coherencey right? Thus the only way an IC could be able to seperate at all is if the seperation happens by declaring it will seperate (which is then fallowed by the movement to allow it).

 

It would likely also meen that if it doesnt get enouph movememnt to seperate, it can't seperate, and when the rest of that unit moves it will have to move at its speed or the speed that the IC moved, whichever is slower.