KP and our WG

[WG Vrox]

Had a tid bit thrown at me last game. I was running a WGPL with a GH squad in an annialation game. The entire pack died and instead of the 1 KP he took 2 KP for killing all my WGs since he was the only one in my list.

 

Just a FYI for ya to think about when building your lists

 

WG Vrox.

[JEFF4i]

Ooooo, never even thought of that! This could change things dramatically.

[Grey Mage]

Nope.... Wolf Guard count as part of their squad for all purposes... including holding objectives. Thus they would be only one kill point. You dont get extra points for killing fenrisian wolves and then the WGBL either for that matter.

 

The reason is its based on the units you kill... not the slots they take up. Otherwise most retinues wouldnt ever be counted, nor would dedicated transports... as they dont take up a slot, but are purchased for something else. However they can be seperate units... so they get a KP.

 

If you run a wulfen they get a KP... because hes a unit.

 

Other strangeness- Tau Gundrones that are mounted on devilfish etc are counted as kill points of their own if the detach and are later destroyed, but not if they are on the tank the entire game... Biovores that launch spore mines- the spore mines are considered to be a KP every time, even if they destroy themselves, because they can contest objectives. However if you hit and they never become a unit you dont get a KP for them... because they werent a unit then.

 

*starst humming the tune to weird science*

[Long Fang]

Indeed, once hes in the squad hes part of it, end of.

 

Well thats the way my club as always played anyway.

 

Long Fang

[SeanyPrawny]

So wolves don't count either? I run a WGBL on bike with 4 wolves so if they all died would only the WGBL give a killpoint?

[dietrich]

Since the wolves are, iirc, removed when the character is slain, they are not worth a KP.

 

I think with some vague interpretations, you can come up with WGPLs being worth KPs. But, as others have said, that's wrong.

 

If the unit is slain, the WGPL doesn't become an independent character or anything - he is just the last man from the unit.

[Grey Mage]

So wolves don't count either? I run a WGBL on bike with 4 wolves so if they all died would only the WGBL give a killpoint?

Wolves are wargear, not a retinue. They operate similarly... but if a WGBL dies his WGBG remains... the same cannot be said about the Fenrisian Wolves.

 

Or to put it another way, if you kill a tau commanders two shield drones does he give you a kill point?

[Vash113]

Had a tid bit thrown at me last game. I was running a WGPL with a GH squad in an annialation game. The entire pack died and instead of the 1 KP he took 2 KP for killing all my WGs since he was the only one in my list.

 

Just a FYI for ya to think about when building your lists

 

You got cheated mate, as the others have said the Pack Leader does not count as a seperate Kill Point. Only Independant Characters and their retinues count as 2 points.

[Nightrunner]

Whilst the examples above are kinda similar, none of them really match what our blooming wolf guard actually fall under.

 

The way my club plays it, they count as a separate kill point. The reason? They come from a separate force organisation section (you need an Elite slot to include any of them) and can be assigned to any squad. Now, whilst they count as a member of that squad for all future purposes, why shouldn't they count as kill points?

 

Think of Lictors, for the tyranids. You can have between 1 and 3 lictors as a single elite choice; however, they all count as separate kill points.

 

The reason is its based on the units you kill... not the slots they take up. Otherwise most retinues wouldnt ever be counted, nor would dedicated transports... as they dont take up a slot, but are purchased for something else. However they can be seperate units... so they get a KP.

 

Grey Mage, I know that your reply reads totally the opposite to mine, but think about it; a retinue counts as a kill point and is essentially an upgrade for an independant character; they count as one unit for all scoring purposes, and specifically count as an extra KP. How is a pack leader any different?

 

Wolves never count, btw. :)

 

Another bit of randomness from our old-school dex!!!!!!!

 

It's for this reason that I've dropped them from my list for the upcoming UKGT final; if they decide there that they count as separate kill points, my list would be haemorraging kill points. It's just my opinion, of course, but there you go!

 

NR :)

[SeanyPrawny]

So does a platoon of 5 squads of 10 imperial guard count as 1 kill point? thats the logic your giving.

[Nightrunner]

So does a platoon of 5 squads of 10 imperial guard count as 1 kill point? thats the logic your giving.

 

It's a bit of both, isn't it! That's the problem! :P

 

Every imperial guard squad counts as a separate kill point. That is clearly established, I'm not going to argue it.

 

But here, we are adding a unit to another unit, and we have to pick it from another part of the army list.

 

A commissar added to an Imperial Guard command squad - does he count as a separate kill point? I can't find a rule to say he isn't, despite the fact that he is an upgrade for a command squad.

 

Again, I just think that this is (unfortunately, I might add!!!!) they way it plays; Wolf Guard aren't (quite) upgrade characters, although they function like them in everything but name.

 

NR :P

[Long Fang]

"A Wolf Guard model is a member of his pack and cannot leave it during the game." Page 8 sw codex

 

"At the end of the game, each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed" page 91 Rulebook

 

Here we can assume that pack=unit ofc.

 

Personally I think that he is part of his pack hence 1 KP.

 

I can see that why you would give 1 KP for wolf guard as a whole if they ALL died but only one i.e if you have 1 WG left at end of game the "unit" survived no extra KP.

 

/me Wishes for a comprehensive FAQ

 

For the record a platoon of 5 squads of IG counts as 5 KP

 

Long Fang

[Grey Mage]

Whilst the examples above are kinda similar, none of them really match what our blooming wolf guard actually fall under.

 

The way my club plays it, they count as a separate kill point. The reason? They come from a separate force organisation section (you need an Elite slot to include any of them) and can be assigned to any squad. Now, whilst they count as a member of that squad for all future purposes, why shouldn't they count as kill points?

 

Think of Lictors, for the tyranids. You can have between 1 and 3 lictors as a single elite choice; however, they all count as separate kill points.

 

The reason is its based on the units you kill... not the slots they take up. Otherwise most retinues wouldnt ever be counted, nor would dedicated transports... as they dont take up a slot, but are purchased for something else. However they can be seperate units... so they get a KP.

 

Grey Mage, I know that your reply reads totally the opposite to mine, but think about it; a retinue counts as a kill point and is essentially an upgrade for an independant character; they count as one unit for all scoring purposes, and specifically count as an extra KP. How is a pack leader any different?

 

Wolves never count, btw. :P

 

Another bit of randomness from our old-school dex!!!!!!!

 

It's for this reason that I've dropped them from my list for the upcoming UKGT final; if they decide there that they count as separate kill points, my list would be haemorraging kill points. It's just my opinion, of course, but there you go!

 

NR :P

The difference is actually that if a characters retinue dies and he remains he becomes an IC again. Thus a seperate unit... the wolf gaurd never can become an IC... can never become a seperate unit.

 

As noted, what about imperial gaurd platoons? Or Inquisitorial death cult assassins? Its by the unit... not by the slot. In the example of a comissar, can he join a unit once his unit dies? If not... then he can be assumed to be part of that unit in all respects.

[Vash113]

Whilst the examples above are kinda similar, none of them really match what our blooming wolf guard actually fall under.

 

The way my club plays it, they count as a separate kill point. The reason? They come from a separate force organisation section (you need an Elite slot to include any of them) and can be assigned to any squad. Now, whilst they count as a member of that squad for all future purposes, why shouldn't they count as kill points?

 

Then your club is mistaken. The Pack Leader is part of the unit utterly and completely, Kill Points are by UNIT not FOC SLOT, the Pack Leader is not a seperate unit now is he? He may come from a different FOC slot but that doesn't matter, it's by unit.

 

The only exception to this is Characters and Retinues, any IC counts as a seperate Kill Point, hense IG Officers and their Command Squads are 2 Kill Points. However the Pack Leader is not an IC either so is not a Kill Point. It's not that complicated so anyone playing that Pack Leaders are an other Kill Point is in essence cheating. :P

[Nightrunner]

Well, I have to say, I pretty much agree, and your arguments are compelling.... but I like playing devil's advocate - and that IS how my club plays it!!!!

 

I think that the issue just comes from the fact that a pack leader is essentially another unit that you add to an existing unit.

 

The argument then is; if something is bought from a different FOC slot, but cannot leave a unit ever, is it still a seperate KP, despite the fact that it is an add-on?

 

Genuinely, this whole issue would be solved by including the line "WGPL count as upgrade characters" in the SW FAQ.

 

But then, I think we are the only army with the only codex where this is a problem. Sad, but true, brothers. -_-

 

Interestingly, at the UK GT heats, I actually played it the way you are all arguing - it has only been in recent months that this issue cropped up and, for the sake of ease, I just stopped arguing and went "meh", I'll have to just win even more convincingly!!!!!!!! :lol:

 

I'm glad that the general consensus is a big fat "No" - I do play SW, you know...... :P

 

NR ;)

[Vash113]

I think that the issue just comes from the fact that a pack leader is essentially another unit that you add to an existing unit.

 

The argument then is; if something is bought from a different FOC slot, but cannot leave a unit ever, is it still a seperate KP, despite the fact that it is an add-on?

 

Except the Pack Leader is not a unit you add to another, he's a squad leader upgrade for the unit added to the unit from a different FOC slot but he is never, ever a unit of his own. Kill Points are as follows from page 91 of the Rulebook:

 

At the end of the gaem, each player recieves 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed.

 

If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each.

 

The Pack Leader is not a character and the squad he's with isn't his retinue, they are 1 unit and as 1 unit give 1 kill point. It's 1 kill point per unit not 1 kill point per FOC slot, if that were so Guard Platoons would be worth 1 kill point not 4. FOC slots have nothing to do with it what so ever, I'm not sure where that idea even came from. Hopefully your club will wise up and see the truth and stop negatively detrimenting Space Wolf players for no reason. :D

[Grey Mage]

Well, I have to say, I pretty much agree, and your arguments are compelling.... but I like playing devil's advocate - and that IS how my club plays it!!!!

 

I think that the issue just comes from the fact that a pack leader is essentially another unit that you add to an existing unit.

 

The argument then is; if something is bought from a different FOC slot, but cannot leave a unit ever, is it still a seperate KP, despite the fact that it is an add-on?

 

Genuinely, this whole issue would be solved by including the line "WGPL count as upgrade characters" in the SW FAQ.

 

But then, I think we are the only army with the only codex where this is a problem. Sad, but true, brothers. -_-

 

Interestingly, at the UK GT heats, I actually played it the way you are all arguing - it has only been in recent months that this issue cropped up and, for the sake of ease, I just stopped arguing and went "meh", I'll have to just win even more convincingly!!!!!!!! :D

 

I'm glad that the general consensus is a big fat "No" - I do play SW, you know...... :P

 

NR :D

Yeah, I know your playing devils advocate... and Im defending the assertations Ive made. Were all gents here tonight ;).

 

GW Faqs arent official anymore anyways... so it could be a moot point you know?

 

Telion is a good example from another book. The old scout is purchased seperately as an upgrade for the unit.

 

But a better one is Blood Angels Death Company. Each member of the unit is taken from a different squad, many of them are troops choices. Does that mean that if those members survive you get no KP for them? Does the unit therefore count as scoring? Do the ones you purchase at a set price in addition to the "free" members make the squad count as an extra KP on top of that? Do you get KP for each and every slot used to fill your death company?

 

Heck no, you get 1 KP for taking out one of the most tough as nails assault squads in the marine forces.

 

Wolf Gaurd get you 1 KP. Otherwise you have to kill every wolf gaurd in every squad and all bodygaurds to get a KP from them. Anything else is complete crap.

[OnlyInDeath]

Honestly though, if your club plays that way Night, by the same logic you could play it this way:

 

Since ALL WGPL's come from the same FOC, then ALL of them on the field of battle must be killed to claim the kill point, and the collective WGPL's only count as one KP.

 

I know it's broken logic, but that's how they are playing. See how long they dig in their heels when faced with that as opposed to a unit upgrade, as is asserted from Vash's (and imo the correct) line of logic.

[WG Vrox]

Since ALL WGPL's come from the same FOC, then ALL of them on the field of battle must be killed to claim the kill point, and the collective WGPL's only count as one KP.

 

This is the way it was ruled at the tournie I played, all WG on the table had to be killed. but I only had the 1 : )

 

 

btw I won 1st place overall and 120.00 worth of stuff. finally a small payout

 

WG Vrox

[Grey Mage]

Well like I said, thats only if you get kill points based on FOC slots. Wich you dont.

[Spacefrisian]

We tried the KP thing as in "every entry on the list is worth 1 Killpoint" it didn't work.

 

Than we did the: Count the number of entries end divide them by the points eg: 8 units in 1000 points makes each unit worth 125 points. Units that were divide before hand were counted among the unit entries. Eg if i would take 4 Wolfguard and divide them the would make the 8 entries example 11 entries lowering the points which can be obtained by defeating a unit.

 

Nowadays we have reverted to the old Victory points from 4th Ed. Its simple and much better.

[dietrich]

Since ALL WGPL's come from the same FOC, then ALL of them on the field of battle must be killed to claim the kill point, and the collective WGPL's only count as one KP.

Actually, if you play it that way, it would be all Wolf Guard, including Bodyguards, since they all come from one FOC - it's just that pack leaders and bodyguards have differernt point costs and weapon options.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed.