Chapter Tactics-

[Grey Mage]

Alright, so if you take one of the special characters from the new C:SM with chapter tactics you exchange your combat tactics for them. However this is a special rule of the character.... so, when the character dies do you lose the special rules? My common sense says no... and I wouldnt argue anyone over this even at a tournie... but I want to find the reason for it.

 

After all if an apothecairy dies you dont get feel no pain anymore. When commanders gave their troops the ability to use their leadership it didnt outlive them. If Lysander dies his unit cant reroll bolter shots anymore....

 

So do they stay stubborn? Are your flamers still twin-linked? Etc. Im not looking for common sense here, as stated common sense tells me that the rule should keep going, Im lookig for the RAW to back it up.

[Legatus]

Chapter Tactics affect your army list. Your units exchange the Combat Tactics Special rule for the Chapter Tactics special rule (or in case of Vilkan, get a Chapter Tactics rule independently from Comobat Tactics). Chosing the special character means your Army is a different one. If the character dies it is still the same army. It is not an aura or area effect that depends on the character being in play.

[Grey Mage]

However it is the character, their presence in the list that requires you to make the change. Without them being on the table their specific rules wouldnt apply would they? After all it doesnt specificly state they do such as with the eldar autarchs master strategist rule.

[Banville]

If you look at the statlines for characters they've got "Special Rules" e.g. a Chaplain's Liturgies of Hate. This is character specific and is tied to the unit he joins or is applied only to him on the table top. The Chapter Tactics rule is army wide and supplants the former Combat Tactics rule whether or not the character is on table, in reserve or just been squished by a powerfist.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[nighthawks]

I believe that this was addressed in the FAQ released recently for C:SM (blank page-appended and mostly useless though it may be)

[Grey Mage]

This is what it says in the FAQ:

 

Q. When you select some special characters

(Shrike, Vulkan, etc.) all units in the army

exchange the rule ‘Combat Tactics’ for another

one (like Stubborn) thanks to the rule ‘Chapter

Tactics’. However, the special characters

themselves follow the rule ‘Combat Tactics’. Is

this intentional? As I understand it, the rule

Combat Tactics is in fact the ‘Chapter trait’ of the

Ultramarines and other ‘Codex’ chapters...

A. Ah, the Combat Tactics rule is just there for

when you use two different special characters and

have to choose which of their Chapter Tactics rule

apply. So, say for example that you include both

Shrike and Lysander in your army. You decide that

Lysander is in charge, so all of the units with

Combat Tactics (including Shrike) replace

‘Combat Tactics’ with ‘Stubborn’. So, these

special characters never really have the ‘Combat

Tactics’ rule, as they either exchange for their

own ‘Chapter Tactics” or the “Chapter Tactics’ of

another such special character. In term of the

story, if they are subordinate to another

commander, these great heroes are flexible

enough to adapt to the fighting style of their

battle-brother.

 

This has nothing to do with wether or not they retain the rule after the death of the character, or if hes not in play... just wether or not the characters themselves get the benefits of their own rules.

 

EDIT: I have a feeling its not included because they didnt expect somone to be this nit-picky over it, however a player thats to be included in a game soon has raised issue with one of the younger players use of special characters, and found this to fault them with.

[Isiah]

The exchanged special character rule remains even after the particular character is dead. This is because once you include the character his special rule is conferred upon all units in the army from the off. The only rule is that you must have included him at the start – being alive (or not) is not an issue.

 

Example

In a slightly similar situation from the DA Codex: Sammy and Belial allow certain units to be taken as Troops choices. When they are killed, those units don't suddenly not become Troops. OK it's a weird example but the closest I can come up with.

 

BTW the issue of the Apoth is different because his rule is to be used in specific circumstances, and only by him, so he has to be on the table.

 

Cheers

I

[nighthawks]

not that odd an example isiah - there are lots of time special "counts as troops" rules are used- ork nobs, wraith guard, SM bikers, sammy, beliel, etc...

 

I think the general point of the rule is that you pay for the character, and in return bring that character's flavor to your list for the duration of the game - such as to represent specialized training or equipment preparation.

 

either way, it's not 100% rock solid RAW, but once again, "everyone knows" how it works...

[Grey Mage]

I know how it works, a fifteen year old IF player knows, and so does the chaos player... this guys being dense. Im looking for a different player, but I thought Id try this first.

[angronn]

You could point out that rules that require the character to be on the table are specifically phrased thus (such as Calgar's God of War or Sicarius' Rites of Battle) and that Chapter Tactics merely states "if this character is included in your army...".

[nighthawks]

yes but the stuborn among us want to read "included" as "on the table" or "with the army, i.e. not a casualty"

 

it's going to be hard to convince them, as the words are there and all we can do is read and understand. if they do that differently, all the persuasive arguments in the world won't matter.

[Grey Mage]

You could point out that rules that require the character to be on the table are specifically phrased thus (such as Calgar's God of War or Sicarius' Rites of Battle) and that Chapter Tactics merely states "if this character is included in your army...".

 

Thats the thing... the wording is just "included" not included in your army. *spreads hands* Im going to try, hopefully this guy wont be to much of an ass.

[Isiah]

You could point out that rules that require the character to be on the table are specifically phrased thus (such as Calgar's God of War or Sicarius' Rites of Battle) and that Chapter Tactics merely states "if this character is included in your army...".

 

Thats the thing... the wording is just "included" not included in your army. *spreads hands* Im going to try, hopefully this guy wont be to much of an ass.

 

Best of luck :D.

[Lord Hereticus]

The problem is that the type of person that trys to argue this in the first place is an A-Grade plonker. Trying to convince him otherwise will, in all likelyhood , be like trying to convince my 4 y/o daughter that wallpaper is not there to draw on.

[Legatus]

I just posted this list of army altering rules in the IA section.

 

The Codex SPace Marines has several different rules where the army is affected by your choice of character. ALl are phrased in the same way

 

Mounted Assault: If your army includes a Captain on a Space Marine bike...

 

Master of the Crimson Fists: If your army includes Pedro Kantor, you may also include one Honour Guard squad

 

Chapter Tactics: If you include Lysander then all units in your army...

 

 

The Codex Dark Angels has similar rules, but there the instances are phrased differently.

 

Sacred Standards: If an Interrogator-Chaplain is in the force, one Standard Bearer in a Command Squad may replace his Company Standard with a Sacred Standard.

 

Dark Angels Chapter Banner: If Azrael is present at a battle then any one Standard Bearer in the army may carry one of the Dark Angel Chapter Banners

 

Army Organisation: If Belial is in the army, Deathwing Terminator Squads may be treated as a Troops choice

 

"Is in the force", "is present at a battle" or "is in the army" instead of the "includes" that is used for all the rules in Codex Space Marines. The outcome is still the same in all those instances.

 

In Codex Orks the rule is kept somewhat shorter:

 

Da Big Boss: A Warboss allows one Meganobz or Nobz mob to be taken as a Troops choice.

[Race Bannon]

Could the arguement be phrased a certain way?

 

All of the character represent an "if/then" condition. If this happens, then this is the outcome ...

 

"Then", as a word, is an expectation of meaning where the word is not present: If Belial is in the army, Deathwing Terminator Squads may be treated as a Troops choice

 

This, I would hope, is RAW.

 

SO, if the SC dies, then the rule still applies. He entrance into the army list grants a special ability to the army. His exit from the game at hand does not remove the condition he granted in the first place.

[bt2278]

Just curious: Does the same player also argument that the chapter tactics don't work when starting a special character in reserve? :D :rolleyes: :lol:

[Kephri]

Another way to look at it, is that the inclusion of the character changes the army list from 'Space Marines" to "Special Chapter Space Marines" (IE This is a Salamander / Crimson Fists army. Not a Space Marine / Ultramarine Army)

 

The fact that the special tactics say "Replace" instead of "temporarily override" implies to me that they are permanent changes, regardless if the model is alive or dead.

[Grey Mage]

I just posted this list of army altering rules in the IA section.

 

The Codex SPace Marines has several different rules where the army is affected by your choice of character. ALl are phrased in the same way

 

Mounted Assault: If your army includes a Captain on a Space Marine bike...

 

Master of the Crimson Fists: If your army includes Pedro Kantor, you may also include one Honour Guard squad

 

Chapter Tactics: If you include Lysander then all units in your army...

 

 

The Codex Dark Angels has similar rules, but there the instances are phrased differently.

 

Sacred Standards: If an Interrogator-Chaplain is in the force, one Standard Bearer in a Command Squad may replace his Company Standard with a Sacred Standard.

 

Dark Angels Chapter Banner: If Azrael is present at a battle then any one Standard Bearer in the army may carry one of the Dark Angel Chapter Banners

 

Army Organisation: If Belial is in the army, Deathwing Terminator Squads may be treated as a Troops choice

 

"Is in the force", "is present at a battle" or "is in the army" instead of the "includes" that is used for all the rules in Codex Space Marines. The outcome is still the same in all those instances.

 

In Codex Orks the rule is kept somewhat shorter:

 

Da Big Boss: A Warboss allows one Meganobz or Nobz mob to be taken as a Troops choice.

 

And as I said there, I dont have access to C:DA so I cant confirm the legitimacy of this. However"

 

Mounted assault, Master of the Armory, Da Big Boss, and Da Big Mek, are never ever rules of the HQ chosen. They are a rules insert found only in the army list section of the book. If you go to the unit description youll find that those rules are not present with the units that "activate" them.

 

Master of the Crimsom fists is also not found in Pedros listing, nor in his special rules- its also an insert.

 

And of course the above mentioned chapter tactics is what is being debated... if you have evidence of that one in particular please show it.

 

As is the term "included" could mean included in the army book IE if you allow special characters then __________. Its odd, but its "possible".

[Legatus]

I wrote more in the other thread. But here are two rules, one from the character, one from teh army list:

 

If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule

 

If your army includes Pedro Kantor, you may also include one Honour Guard squad

 

With two identical rules, I don't see how one should seize to apply if the character is killed, while the other does not. None of the rules requires that the character is on the table or alive.

 

As is the term "included" could mean included in the army book IE if you allow special characters then __________. Its odd, but its "possible".

The rule then adresses the units of your army, however, so you would have to be awfully stubborn to take that as anything other than "included in the army".

[Grey Mage]

Agreed, this person is however very stubborn.

 

As for the above two rules they are not identical.... one says you include _____ and the other says your army includes ______

[Legatus]

one says you include _____

Ask for his opinion "where" you are supposed to include the model. If he suggests anything other than "your army" then assert that he is in fact wrong and it is sufficient if you include the model in your miniature case, and that if that is the... case, you can use the model's chapter tactics, without actually having to have the character in your army list at all. You "included" him, didn't you? In your case. And all GW cares about is selling you the miniature, so having it bought at all (or converted) will obviously be enough for them to grant you those rules. Make your Marines stubborn, have fleet, have win linked meltaguns or the flanking ability, depending on the game you are playing.

[NemoHac]

+1 :D

 

If they force this line then pull something equally dubious. An eye for an eye & all that.

 

As my Ork playing wife put it:

If I pulled that then you'd use Telion to snipe out my Warboss and claim that my Nobz were no longer troops; forcing me to fofeit the game as my list had more than three Elite choices