Is this heresy?

[Niflhel]

So, here's the deal.

I've been out of the hobby for the last 6-7 years, and while i've actually never gamed much, i've done quite a bit of painting and modelling.

 

Anyway, i'd like to get back into the hobby, but this time, i'd like an actually army, so i can play a bit, too.

I've gotten a few codexes, including BT, SM and WH.

And while BT and SM seems fancy enough, WH is just.. Beyond the point of awesome. From the faith point system, to the incredible amount of flamers and meltas, not to mention the Exorcist... It's just hard to say no.

 

There's a draw back to WH though, and that is the range of models. Don't get me wrong, the models are beautiful - But they're mostly metal, which not only is pricy, but also annoying to work with, compared to plastic kits.

 

So here's my thougth: I'd like to use SoB to represent a non-codex Adeptus Astartes regiment. This would not only give me access to a wealth of plastic models, but also fantastic conversion oppertunities!

 

The fluff is a bit tricky to work out, but i'm thinking of something along a crusade setting off to a far away region, only to get tied down in a system infested with hordes of Xenos for a couple of milleniums - Cut off from the rest of the Imperium, the Chapter started to stray further and further away from Codex Astartes, although more fanatical.

One of the trickiest points to justify, is the S3/T3 of the SoB. Not quite sure how to handle this, but i was thinking of something along the lines of...

With the systems infested with semingly endless hordes of Xenos, the chapter started taking more casualties faster than they could replace them. This, combined with their situation, being cut off from much-needed resuplies and contact with the rest of the Imperium, eventually made them, may the Emperor have mercy on their soul, stop implanting the Black Carapace into their new recruits, as well as modifying their PA suits accordingly.

 

Just a rough sketch, but you catch the idea.

 

But the question is: Would this be legal, especially in tournaments? Keep in mind, it's a heavily converted Space Marine force, not straigth-out-of-the-box vanilla marines that just 'count as'.

 

Cheers,

Niflhel

[Shunch]

Well right off the bat, I want to say that your background ideas and fluff have a lot of merit to them - you've obviously put some degree of though into them. For what it's worth, I would play against you with no qualms whatsoever.

 

As for tournaments, well, that might be a tricky subject. In fact, it's difficult for me to really provide a generalization as an answer. On one hand, you are using official citadel Miniatures in the correct range, and extensively converted ones at that. On the other hand, you are also technically using proxies, albeit high-quality ones. The only real thing you can do is talk to the tournament organizer in order to get permission. I'd imagine most organizers would say yes, but don't rely on it happening every time.

 

Once again, for what it's worth, I would let you in my tournament :confused:

[Captain Malachi]

I don't think it's the black carapace that gives them their enhanced strength and toughness. So maybe you could say they developed a safer way to make new recruits, and therefore were able to take less physically powerful men, but this had the drawback of not increasing they're strength as much as it could have done before. (that probably doesn't make sense)

[Ozybonza]

You could always use scout models.....

[jakehunter52]

Oh I bet some posters here are going to be enraged by this (one in particular methinks)....

 

First, the fluff. Getting cut off is too general and IMO, weak storyline. That would mean they were cut off from the forge worlds (ammunition and armour which, according to you, they were burning through like cash of an ADD wargamer) but more importantly, from their chapter homeworld where all the geneseed is stored and essential for new recruits. You might want to look into the history of the Aurora chapter during the Macharius Crusade, they essentially set up a kingdom and kept it for several thousand years till the Imperium came back. Got a great article over on Bell of Lost Souls about it. But I do think you are on the right track with the "no black carapace" idea, that is one of the significant differences they mention in the codex but going a bit further might do you justice as to the increased numbers. Like the tech priests losing part of the STC for genetically altering marines because of an intense battle on the chapter planet so they had to make it up with numbers and intensive training or even augments (to represent faith abilities).

 

As far as playing against...mixed basket. Probably most people would initially be concerned with equipment being accurately represented, since that is what WYSIWYG is mostly about. However I think that it might be a recurring problem that people would assume your "girls" to have space marine stats, since SoB are not commonly played against, which could seriously alter the game in your favor (inadvertently) and make it frustrating and unfair to them. It's one thing for them to forget that you have faith which turns your armour saves into invo saves and bolters that have ap 1 but it's another when the model on the table is very much a misrepresentation of the original unit. Keep it for friendly games dude, for your sake and his.

 

What kind of conversions were you thinking about?

[Lady_Canoness]

Yup, that's heresy alright.

 

Counts-as tends to have limits, though these limits are mostly by convention. Using an entire army as counts as, however, when not using scratch built minis, is taking it a little far.

Want the army? Collect the units.

What you're suggesting is that you like a particular set of rules, but you don't want to have to buy any new minis - you have yourself a 'generic' army that you can use to represent anything. Why not Necrons? You can say your marines forsake heavy and special weapons in favour of better power armour. Yea right.

 

The model your opponent sees across the table should be accurate to the statline; if you put down a space marine, it should be a space marine - otherwise what is to stop someone from using one army's minis 'because they like them' and a different army's rules 'because they like them'? That is essentially what you are doing.

A spade is a spade, so unless you are ready to take up your tools and rework every mini you have to the point that your opponent could look across the table and say "nice work on the Sisters of Battle", I think you haven't a case for trying to pass off one army as another - fluff or no.

 

jakehunter was probably expecting lady Melissia to turn up with flamers ready...

Looks like I got here first though.

[jester_prince]

Bah, you people are no fun, aslong as he is using all the same rules fron one codex there is nothing wron g with him using marine minies. otherwise no extensive conversions would be allowed EVER. People use aslong as it is made clear to your oppenent your using a certain codex why not. Hell its a more interesting army to play against then vannila marines, without the expense (and in my opinion tragic looking models). Aslong as the weapons are all represented right and the wargear is made clear on all the models there should be no issue with your opponent. We have templar forces using the marine codex, technicaly what your saying is that army should stick to only it own models and codex (and yes they share parts they have totaly different rules), no one complains when a chaos player uses the marine codex. Its not really all that different really. They get away with it because they are equiped right, if someone said their elder with shurken cataspults were marines then youd be right to complain.

 

Hell I just had an idea for my own take on this (I wont do it probably but its an idea). Why couldnt a renegade lord of a system with the recorces and the money assemble his own army of power armoured worriors without the permission of mars, for instance what if a chapter was whiped out and their keep was left in a system, the lord could have discovered the plans and equipment hidden inside and used them to make power armour and weapons (its obviously possible because sisters use power armour as do alot of inquisitors and high ranking officers), and then used the plans to craft his own army, they would be the same as sisters in strength and toughness as without a geneseed they are only human. Its perfectly fluffy really, and the sisters rules would fit the army better then codex marines would. That would be an awesome army to face off against in my opinion and plenty of planetary lords go rogue when they taste power, its heresy, but that's the point.

 

You could even just put the s3/t3 down to a defect in the gene seed if you wanted to take the easy way out. Its simple no one can complain because most chapters suffer from a defect these days.

 

If they have been cut off they could still have a forgeworld to access, perhaps a vicious warpstorm has simply destroyed and blocked off an entire tip of an arm on the galaxy and left the chapter and several hundred imperial worlds stranded and having to make themselves self sufficent leaving the chapter the solde defender of the system.

 

Perhaps the chapter recruits from monistarys of worrior monks? that could be cool.

 

I would quite happily take on this army in a game too.

People need to lighten up the game is about being creative some people have forgotten that along the way... hell back in the day vehicles were made from plastic bottles and cardboard with turrets from tonka toys and everything was counts as. Thats why I dont play tournaments, some people can be so anal.

 

Go with it dude and congrats on not being afraid to think outside the box.

 

 

EDIT:

Aslong as I can see youve put some real thought into why your army is the way it is (even if it was marines using necron rules) I would gladly play that army, even if i didnt like the reason. Who am I (or anyone else) to tell you what your army should be. If a kid turned up and said Its a cecron cuz I dont have the spacemarine codex yet id sayu get lost but if they gave me a reason i think they have put some real thought into then why not.

[Heru]

jakehunter was probably expecting lady Melissia to turn up with flamers ready...

She won't bother with the flamer, she'll just eat his freakin' skin!

 

:: Looks causiously about ::

 

So, here's the deal.

I've been out of the hobby for the last 6-7 years, and while i've actually never gamed much, i've done quite a bit of painting and modelling.

 

Anyway, i'd like to get back into the hobby, but this time, i'd like an actually army, so i can play a bit, too.

I've gotten a few codexes, including BT, SM and WH.

And while BT and SM seems fancy enough, WH is just.. Beyond the point of awesome. From the faith point system, to the incredible amount of flamers and meltas, not to mention the Exorcist... It's just hard to say no.

To be honest I've been toying with a similar idea in my head. The difference though was I wasn't going to use the Sisters as Count As Astartes, but instead as an Inquisitor Lords personal Power Armoured Army (ie Inquisition Storm Troopers in Power Armour). I even have most of the parts for their variation on Power Armour picked out so that they look different than the standard Space Marine Power Armour Marks (a look more akin to Fallout Power Armour, except with the standard 40k PA backpacks). The only thing I wasn't going to do though was use the Sister's Acts of Faith (as that's the Sister's very special thing).

[Lady_Canoness]

Go with it dude and congrats on not being afraid to think outside the box.

 

Think outside the wallet is more like it...

 

She won't bother with the flamer, she'll just eat his freakin' skin!

 

:: Looks causiously about ::

 

Dude... brilliant... dude... B)

 

 

Well, I said what I'm going to say, so if you want to rebel against the system, sock-it-to the man, or "think outside the box" - go ahead. Be prepared to do a lot of explaining whenever you hit the tables.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

jester_prince Posted Today, 01:22 AM

Bah, you people are no fun, aslong as he is using all the same rules fron one codex there is nothing wron g with him using marine minies.

 

I take exception to this. There are plenty of people out there who are attracted to the game because of the fluff, and that viewpoint is no less valid than those who don't give a damn about the fluff. You do not have the right to decide how we have fun. :P

 

I think Lady_Canoness' comment sums it up best - it's your army, do it if you want, but remember it's going to be extremely difficult to reconcile it with the fluff. It would be a rare person, even a rare fluff-nut, that would refuse to play you on those grounds though.

[Prathios]

I dont think I would refuse to play you on fluff grounds but I probably wouldn't stop complaining about how wrong it is in every way :D

[Niflhel]

Think outside the wallet is more like it...

Not sure i'd save much.

Sure, i won't have to buy blisters with metal models, but instead, i'll have to buy regulare marines plus plenty of bitz. I ain't got anything laying around, as i've thrown it all out years ago, but... It certainly won't be cheap. Gettings bitz for converting a whole army would infact, probaly, be damn pricy.

 

[Edit] A SoB squad costs 19.55£, while a Tactical Squad costs 17.60£. Planning on buying a bit more than a single jump pack per squad for conversion purpose, so those 1.95£ would hardly be noticeable, i'd say.

 

Anyway, comparing using SM as count-as Necrons to using SM as count-as SoB is a bit far out. I belive the Necrons are made of some sort of living metal, and as we all know, if you're made of that kind of stuff, you don't need to wear bulky armor - Just watch Terminator 2! And having a bolter represent a Gauss Flayer, is not exactly WYSIWYG.

SM and SoB both share many similarities - They're humans, using both Bolters and Power Armour. Yes, SoB uses a different kind of Power Armour than Space Marines, but then again, some people use MK2 armor in their SM armies - And i've yet to hear of people complaining about that, even though MK2 is vastly different from MK7. And there'll be no Terminator suits counting as Cloak of St. Aspira in my army.

 

The biggest difference is the fact that SM is genetically modified super soldiers, while SoB is 'just' regular, extremely faithful, human beings.

 

It brings up another subject, Acts of Faith.

As far as i've understood, Acts of Faith is literarily acts of faith. It's not some sort of a psychic ability that the SoB are born with, but rather something they're thougth - Faith. This would also mean that it's not something that is nececarily unique to SoB, but rather something you could in all corners of the Imperium.

 

Anyway, cheers for the replies, everyone. You've given me a bit to think about.

[jakehunter52]

It brings up another subject, Acts of Faith.

As far as i've understood, Acts of Faith is literarily acts of faith. It's not some sort of a psychic ability that the SoB are born with, but rather something they're thougth - Faith. This would also mean that it's not something that is nececarily unique to SoB, but rather something you could in all corners of the Imperium.

 

That's like telling a run-of-the-mill guardsmen he will survive his first encounter (Do you know what the average lifespan after planet fall? EIGHTY TWO SECONDS! Now think of the conscripts...). According to the dex, the Superiors are the ones who make the squad faithful, not the average SoB. Kinda like a preacher moving a congregation to action but this must be something special because not even commissars can do that and they go to school together! That is pretty exceptional if you ask me. If you are serious about doing this, come up with a different theory please. I like what Grand Master Tyrak says, fluff is a really great aspect of this game that I enjoy and I know that making plausable armies are possible (you have no idea how I have had to rack my mind to explain why my Warrior of Chaos Tzeentch general was wearing a Collar of Khorne).

[Brother Delias]

I've had similar thoughts, and honestly... for making... erm... Battlefriars. IF you want to do this... honestly... the best minis come from WHFB in the way of the Empire... and that is simply as a base. From there you will have to model power armor, which depending on how you shape the base model, will be very easy of very hard.

 

as far as fluff wise is concerned... here is mine so far:

 

Nothing was more backwater than the Agri world of Grayth IV. A world with no tactical advantage to it, and was thus far safe from the predations of xenos threat, as well as incursions from the warp, Graythians enjoyed a relatively quiet life. The only real excitement went abound when the odd imperial cruiser came through to pick up supplies, or when the administratum remembered to collect tithes from the poplace. All of this changed however, upon the arrival of one Xaivier Beck. A charismatic man, Beck quickly won over the esteem of the leading officials of Grayth IV, whom foolishly allowed him asylum from his enemies. Within months, women garbed in black armor made planetside, hunting for the man that had caused two worlds to perish to his acts of heresy, while officials under Beck's grace flatly denyed any knowledge of his existance, the general populace were so taken to the fanatasism, one might even say passion, that the women possessed that elements within the general population had helped to bring down Beck before he could cause harm to their world. Beck, as well as those enthralled to him, quickly dissappeared, along with the warrior-women that had come seeking to bring him to justice. The leader of the women that had also been impressed with how readily the people of Grayth IV had been to bear faith to the Emperor, and after a month more, the Graythians were visited again, this time however, by a member of both the eccelsiarchy and the administratum, with the intent on establishing a convent to the ordo hereticus on Grayth IV. One major problem existed for their plans however. As an Agri world that was so far out of the eyes of it's galactic neighbors, Graythians were able to create massive, sprawling farmgrounds. As such, due to selective breeding, most of Grayth IV's populace was male. Not to be deterred, the member of the Administratum decided that instead of an adeptus sororitas, upon Grayth IV, there would be a Adeptus Fratirnus, and under the guidance of the Preist Renault Valeweather, the Order of the Sacred Hammer was born.

[Peredyne]

The only problem with that fluff is that the ecclesiarchy is restricted by the administratum to have no "Men at Arms" under their control. The Sororitas, being female, do not break the letter of the law.

[Brother Delias]

apart from the fact that the man-at-arms is a general term for a rank within a military structure from midevil times?

[Peredyne]

Check the canon fluff. All of the ecclesiarchal navies, the Frateris Templar, everything except the Adepta Sororitas were disbanded. After the Reign of Blood/Vandire apostasy, the Ecclesiarchy were forbidden to keep any military forces under their control because the law was worded as "Men at Arms" The Adepta Sororitas, being female, did not violate the letter of the law. The spirit perhaps, but not the letter.

 

Check out the lexicanum entry: Adepta Sororitas

[Brother Delias]

Joke taken out of context... but ok... was meant for a slight joke and nothing more... however, getting back to subject at hand. That was at the closing of the Age of Apostasy... nothing to say what was created wasn't created beforehand.... and thus my fluff has found the plot hole of simply being lost in the endless mechanations of the Imperium.

[Peredyne]

Can't argue with that. The bureacracy of the imperium has lots of holes to slip through.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The only problem I can see with the bureaucratic hole concept is their alleigance. If they've slipped through a hole in the bureacracy, then they don't recieve much information from the Imperium itself - if they were in contact with the current Ecclesiarchy, the Ordo Hereticus would know and jump on them. However, if they are not in contact with the Ecclesiarchy then it stands to reason that they would not be loyal to the reformed Ecclesiarchy under Sebastian Thor, and would instead by still opposing the Confederation of Light and be fighting for the dead Temple of the Saviour Emperor, which died with Goge Vandire.

See the problem? You can't really work it so you're half in, half out of that bureacratic hole. Either you're lost or you're not. If you choose to be out of contact, then you have license to do all sorts of stuff, and have all sorts of stuff that would normally be prohibited by the Decree Passive. But you have to forego your Imperial alleigance - you are fighting for a long-dead cause in a war you don't realise is over (I actually think this fits in with grimdark very well). If you choose to not be lost in a bureacratic loophole, then you gain your alleigance to the modern Ecclesiarchy, but in return you are bound by the Decree Passive.

[Brother Hadafix]

I think this could be a very interesting theme. It is well known the the Inquisition doesnt stick by the laws if you are going that way, or if they are a Chapter then the faulty geneseed makes sence.

 

I wouldnt have a problem playing against this as long as your fluff was well thought out.

 

What thoughts have you got for the conversions?

 

Edit: BT have vows to represent there faith so the whole faith point being to SoB for other PA users is more them being over protective of their codex

[Grand Master Tyrak]

It is well known the the Inquisition doesnt stick by the laws if you are going that way,

 

:D The Inquisition does stick by the laws, always.

 

The fact that the Inquisition has no laws, only conventions, is of no importance. :huh:

 

Seriously, the Inquisition is the law, unless another Inquisitor disputes this.

 

If you were referring to the general civilian law that the Arbites enforce, then neither Inquisition nor Astartes are bound by that.

[Brother Hadafix]

It is well known the the Inquisition doesnt stick by the laws if you are going that way,

 

:huh: The Inquisition does stick by the laws, always.

 

The fact that the Inquisition has no laws, only conventions, is of no importance. :P

 

Seriously, the Inquisition is the law, unless another Inquisitor disputes this.

 

If you were referring to the general civilian law that the Arbites enforce, then neither Inquisition nor Astartes are bound by that.

 

:P Conventions then :lol: The Inquisition has no jurisdiction over Astartes, though they are known to interfere, and that is a convention going back to when the Primarchs were still walking around.

[Kuchinawa]

You know I just had a thought

 

IG or Scout models. They would do just fine :mellow:

You could bulk them up in an hourglass figure with GS (I know I've seen it on the B&C some where Dr. Thunder was it? )

And you could still call them Sisters of Battle if you pull it off correctly There are plastic and easy to work with, and you need not deal with "SM are SM not Wanna be SoBs" players.

 

IMO I'd let you play the Sob-SM every time :D

 

EDIT

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=155600 That was it

 

And you know what? I'm going to bite the bullet and take my own advice. I'll go get the cheap 5 man IG pack, then try and covert it to SoB. :D

[ripath]

You could just say that they have a different model of power armor similar to the astartes. and just paint it in sisters of battle colors. Make sure they all have helmets though. if asked "They can't be women theres no boobs!" Remind them just how thick power armor is and how much that can hide. But thats just my opinion, I also think that people should just run tac marines for stern guard with the old vet paint scheme of a different helmet color.