Morbad Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I noticed that most assault sergeants are given a power fist in peoples' lists. Why that over lightning claws, though? Am I missing some math hammer that explains why power fists are the obvious better choice? I was planning to use my assault squad primarily to eliminate scoring infantry. To that purpose, wouldn't striking at initiative be extremely important? It also seem that assault marines should be able to easily avoid anything that would give them trouble like a dread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I noticed that most assault sergeants are given a power fist in peoples' lists. Why that over lightning claws, though? Am I missing some math hammer that explains why power fists are the obvious better choice? The math-hammering is actually in favor of the dual Claws. It works out like this: Assault Marine Sarge (on the charge) with Power Fist 3 attacks = 1.5 hits = 1.25 dead MEQ @ I1 Assault Marine Sarge (on the charge) with dual Claws 4 attacks = 2 hits = 1.5 dead MEQ @ I4 The reason that the Power Fist is more common is probably 2 fold a) its easier to get a Power Fist than a Power Armor dual Claws and more importantly :lol: dual Claws do nothing against T8/tanks/walkers where as a Power Fist is very helpful against those. Its kinda like comparing Plasma to Melta. Plasma is better at killing medium targets (light armor, heavy infantry etc) but the downside is that it can't hurt heavy armor at all whereas Melta is still decent at killing the lighter stuff but can hurt the heavy stuff too. In essence, a Power Fist is the "safe" loadout and the dual Claw is the "specialized" loadout Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1908988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurasuke Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Its also useful if a multi-wound model attacks your squad. Now, I don't have the 5th edition rulebook at the moment but the hidden powerfist has been a common tactic for longer than I can remember. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1909055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Well I for one have run my twin lightning claw Assault Sergant and I can tell you that I will not be running him again because he is unlucky. When he go into combat in my first game he did perform quite well against the Orks I sent the squad after, swinging at I4 is much better when dealing against numbers and the extra attacks and extra wounds due to rerolls was a good thing. I have recently attempted to use an assault Sergant as a tank buster with both Melta Bombs and Power Fists however neither performed that well when a tank is moving simply because at least half of your attacks are missing on average. I think if you are not going after tanks and can keep away from Dreads then the lightning claws is the way to go, even though you lose the shooting attack which is frequently forgotten about in this debate, simlpy because it kills at initiative which I am finding more and more to be the difference between winning and losing in 5th Ed with combat resolution. Kill them before they get their attacks back and I usually win or at least draw the combat, wait until I1 and I have probably already lost enough units that my Fist or Hammer is only narrowing the loss rather than pushing the win. I have removed my Assault Squad from my list for my next tournament as they have not been performing well enough but that is a side issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1909308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulochromis Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I run "both". The Assault sergeant has the fist, the special/independent character (counts as shrike or just a JP captain) has the lightning claws. That way I get to swing first with the claws to reduce the headcount, swing with squad's chainsword next, and have a go at the tough bugger with the fist. I also have a second assault squad, with the sergeant equipped with a hammer. I view this as fist++, so if I can spare the points, I take him instead Another option is an IC with a fist/hammer, in which case I would definitely give the sergeant the lightning claws. There are also quite a few threads up at the moment emphasising the single lightning claw over the power sword. Cheers, Paul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1909393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Personally, I wouldn't take a meltabombs+powerfist combination. If you use a grenade against a vehicle, then that means you can only have one attack in that assault phase and that one is with the grenade. Therefore you waste 25 pts that is the powerfist. If you really want to spent 30 points on that sergeant, give him a thunder hammer. Another reason I prefer the powerfist is because of monstrous creatures. At str 4, a lightning-claw armed assault sergeant will be struggling to pop a single wound in most MC, while a powerfist armed one will be wounding a T6 bloodthirster/avatar/carnifex/hive tyrant/etc. on 2+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1909594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmongrel Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I need to make sure I'm not on crazy pills. I just loaded the new library file for my copy of Army Builder. I am plugging my list into it and I noticed that the assault sergeant can replace either of his standard weapons with a pair of lightning claws. As this would allow the sergeant to wield a pair of lightning claws in addition to a bolt pistol, I balked, knowing that his now grossly enlarged forefinger would not fit through the trigger guard of the bolt pistol, to say nothing of holding onto the hilt. I assumed this was an error in the Army Builder data but, when I referenced the codex, it does indeed say "may replace his bolt pistol and/or chainsword" with "a thunder hammer or pair of lightning claws". Read in the most literal way, Army Builder appears correct yet I know this is not possible fluff-wise. Any helpful thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1911832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 This is, due to collective reasoning and logic, a mistake as it would allow your Sergant to do things that not even the Captain can do. Its best to just ignore this option and purchase the lightning claws separately (it comes to the same cost anyway) to make sure that your Sergant doesnt end up with an extra weapon that will cause arguments. Thinking about it from a RAW perspective it would allow you to take 2 Pairs of Lightning Claws or even a Pair of lightning claws and a Power Fist etc. Not exactly sensible so if you just accept it as a mistake it makes the wole selection a lot more logical. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1911871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 It doesn't matter if you can take 2 pairs of lightning claws, you still only get +1A once. And for the record, this has been done to death in other threads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1911880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbad Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 It doesn't matter if you can take 2 pairs of lightning claws, you still only get +1A once. True, but the pistol would let you shoot before charging. Maybe model a bolt pistol built into one of the claws? Like Calgar's gauntlets? :D Seriously, though, yeah, it's probably an oversight and you shouldn't try to pull this off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1912167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I don't know why people keep thinking it's an oversight. This is the only instance in the book where it's written like that, seems pretty obvious to me they meant it. It's done precisely so you can keep your pistol, they are assault marines after all, they should be fairly good at assaulting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1912265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbad Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 I don't know why people keep thinking it's an oversight. It's because the index finger on a lightning claw can't physically fit inside the trigger guard of a bolt pistol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1912313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 So? Like you said, maybe he mounted the gun on the glove. Or maybe he has a special pistol with a larger trigger guard. Or maybe he has all the claws on one hand to maximise damage. Or maybe the pistol is shoulder mounted. You get my point? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1912361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Matteo Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 i prefer taking a thunder hammer, itsjust slightly more then a fist, and is slightly better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1912490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I personally take PF/SS and it has proven to be just unmovable. That sarge has gone toe-to-toe with dreadnoughts for 2 turns straight and not died and killed the dread. Power fist is just better because well when you can insta-death characters with it, it's helpful along with taking down tanks. So if I was to take a pair of lightning claws and a power fist (assuming the sarge had a wolverine claw on one hand) I could ether choose to have 4 attack, re-roll to wound and ignore armour at I4 or 3 attacks at str 8 ignore armour at I1 (assuming I get the charge), at my chosing. yea I think thats broken and needs fixed...great another thing wrong in the C:SM, seriously, I might just start beefing up my necrons again (at least there rules make sence, unlike our current marines) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1914395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Antonius Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I don't know why people keep thinking it's an oversight. Probably because vanguard vet sergeants dont have this option. Why give the marines with less combat experience an ability that marines, who are supposed to be better/more experienced versions, dont have? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1915872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Because vanguard get a butt load of other toys, such as power weapons for several members of the squad. They can get the exact same effect just spread across several models instead. In fact, they can do a lot better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162430-pair-of-lightning-claws-for-assault-sergeant/#findComment-1915930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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