[Daemon review] Elites.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, I think most of you can guess what this topic is for. I suggest we start with the fiends of Slaanesh, I'll post my thoughts later, have fun.

[==Me==]

Fiends.

 

Best Elite unit in the book.

 

Awesome statline, amazing movement, hit & run, rending. These guys can be anywhere and kill anything, all for a bargain price. I always field at least 1 unit of 6. They can shrug off a lot of fire with 2 wounds each and when they connect something is going to die. 6 S5 rending attacks each is a thing of beauty. Always throw in Unholy Might for some extra S and wound allocation.

 

I use these guys as primary assaulters and tank busters. S5/6 and rending means they will tear up anything short of a Land Raider (and they even have a decent shot against them) and with H&R they can quickly disengage to hunt down a priority target, penetrate deeper into enemy lines, leaving a nice softened up unit for your slower units.

 

Win.

[minigun762]

Yeah pretty much they're amazing. In most competitive armies they'll take the place of Daemonettes or Seekers as they do the same thing, just much better.

Honestly their main competition is probably a Chariot Sherald with Unholy Might.

 

They give some major speed to Daemons and unlike the Fleshounds or Furies, they bring enough killing power to the table that they can be used for more than tying up the opponent. Your best use would probably be something similar to the Keeper of Secrets ping pong trick, hit a unit, severly damage it then bounce away so you don't get stuck in a tarpit. They're much safer in assault than out in the open as even Bolter fire will get to them quickly.

 

Hit, Rend, Run, Repeat. Thats my motto.

[Warp Angel]

Hit, Rend, Run, Repeat. Thats my motto.

 

Rule #37 from the bestselling book, "Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates"

 

There is no overkill. Only "open fire" and "time to reload."

 

The issue being that Demons don't "open fire" so well. ;) So maybe your motto works here.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Fiends, while not being as killy as Bloodcrushers nor as survivable as Beasts, are probably the most all-round melee unit in the book. With a potential 24" charge range, there's no reason to attempt risky Deep Strikes just to get close to the enemy lines. Like others have said, 6 S5 attacks each on the charge allows them to decently mince infantry, but the real benefit IMO comes from rending, and their effectiveness against vehicles. Each fiend has a decent chance of scoring a penetration against AV10. Just don't use them against Ironclads and Land Raiders. Don't even TRY to use them against Monoliths.

[Vassakov]

Fiends - extremely effective against enemy light/medium infantry. Rending probably won't see them through larger units of well armoured infanty, and they'll struggle vs Dreads. However, speed + H&R makes them a potent weapon.

[minigun762]

they'll struggle vs Dreads.

 

They do, but the best thing about them is that unlike Bloodcrushers, they can't get stuck in and slowly smashed to death.

They're fairly decent at Dread killing actually. Say 3 of them assault a Dread, thats 12 attacks = 6 hits = 1 Rend. In return he gets 2 swings = 1 hits = 1/2 a wound after saves.

Then you just bounce away onto something else.

[Raptor1313]

Agree with the assessment of them being the Bee's reversed-jointed knees.

 

They have speed. 6" + d6 + 12" charge. Hit 'n' run. If they don't want to be in that assault, they'll leave, so no getting stuck in with dreads.

 

They have volume of attacks. 5 base attacks at WS4, S5, rending? Yes, please. The only real issue is durability with T4, 2 wounds, and a 5+ save in the open.

 

But, they've got the speed to actually get through cover and compensate for a bad scatter.

 

And, they're inexpensive. 30 points a head? Bringing the full 18 of them costs you 540 points. I don't think I'd bother with upgrades.

 

EDIT:

Note also Beasts can actually get up to a 14 roll vs. armor. S5 + d6 + d3 of rending. IT won't drop a land raider, but it IS something, at least.

[Captain Malachi]

This look good to you guys?

 

Fiends of Slaanesh:

Generally considered the best elites choice we have. They have a lot of rending attacks, high strength and average survivability. They are one of few units in the codex capable of taking down just about anything. Their main advantage though is their ridiculous speed. Remember that trick with hit and run from the keepers section? These guys can do it too, and probably with even more effectiveness. Another advantage of their speed is that you don’t need to be too risky with your deep striking, you can drop quite a way away and be in combat next turn.

 

The main thing to remember is that while capable against anything, there are some things you want to avoid. You’ll learn what these are from experience, I would tell you but it’s a fairly broad range of units, the main ones are dreads and land raiders. But thanks to soporific musk, that’s not a problem, you can simply bounce away and hit something else. About the only thing they can’t do is shoot, but when you’re this good in combat who cares?

[==Me==]

You've got the basics down, but some parts rub ==Me== the wrong way. "Generally considered the best" is probably something to avoid. There are a lot of good elite choices in the book and while I'm ga ga over Fiends, Bloodcrushers and Flamers have their spot too. "I would tell you more, but it comes with experience" doesn't seem too right either. Fiends are capable against all types of foes, but they do have difficulty bringing down Land Raiders and high AV walkers, plus Monoliths are impossible to remove.

[Captain Malachi]

Good points, is this better?

 

Fiends of Slaanesh:

A very powerful unit, they have a lot of rending attacks, high strength and average survivability. They are one of few units in the codex capable of taking down just about anything. Their main advantage though is their ridiculous speed. Remember that trick with hit and run from the keepers section? These guys can do it too, and probably with even more effectiveness. Another advantage of their speed is that you don’t need to be too risky with your deep striking, you can drop quite a way away and be in combat next turn.

 

The main thing to remember is that while capable against anything, there are some things you want to avoid, the main ones being dreadnoughts and land raiders, monoliths cannot be taken be taken down at all. But thanks to soporific musk, that’s not a problem, you can simply bounce away and hit something else. About the only thing they can’t do is shoot, but when you’re this good in combat who cares?

[minigun762]

Ahhh I didn't get my motto in there, damn!

 

Seriously though, it looks about right. I think its a very good buy.

[Raptor1313]

Seems that my comp at my reply...

 

I'd note that Fiends in numbers CAN theoretically handle a dread. Say, triple fiends. On the charge, 18 attacks. 9 hits, at least one rend, maybe a pen. They've got the volume of fire to get the job done, but there are other things for them to hit, like targets with T3-5 or so.

 

They could theoretically glance a Land Raider, but in reality that just puts you in line for hurricane bolters, flamer templates, twin-linked assault cannons, and the cargo.

 

I think we also need a note on fragility. They come in units of 5-6, they have two T4 wounds with a 5+ save. They do not last. They're best used with cover, or other folks locking their targets into combat.

 

Additionally, they have no grenades. THIS can be a problem, and you've got to mitigate it by charging in a durable tarpit first (IE: Nurglings or a Soul Grinder) as if you hit a target in cover that's locked in CC, you still get to strike at initiative. And believe me, you only have to charge your fiends into a unit in cover ONCE to realize this is a pain...

[Captain Malachi]

Fiends of Slaanesh:

A very powerful unit, they have a lot of rending attacks, high strength and average survivability. They are one of few units in the codex capable of taking down just about anything. Their main advantage though is their ridiculous speed. Remember that trick with hit and run from the keepers section? These guys can do it too, and probably with even more effectiveness. Another advantage of their speed is that you don’t need to be too risky with your deep striking, you can drop quite a way away and be in combat next turn.

 

The main thing to remember is that while capable against anything, there are some things you want to avoid, the main ones being dreadnoughts and land raiders, monoliths cannot be taken be taken down at all. It’s worth noting however that they can handle these things (except the monolith), but they simply have better targets. Another thing to note is that they are fragile like all Slaaneshi units, a 5+ save and toughness four can only go so far. It’s recommended that you try and stick to cover with these guys. Finally, remember that they don’t have grenades, so don’t go charging into cover unless you have to or have tied the unit up already.

Better?

[==Me==]

:D

[Raptor1313]

Looks like it's covered the cons of 'em. I've been running 'em lately, and while they're nasty, when they fold they fold in STYLE.

 

Then again, folding in grand style is the daemon way.

[Captain Malachi]

Excellent, if we're done with fiends we can move on to flamers.

 

Personally, these guys are the epitome of suicide droppers for me. They exist purely to be run in 3-man squads to drop, kill and die. There's more to it than that but I'm lazy and want to leave you guys something to say.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Flamers are possibly the most interesting unit in the book.

 

As jump infantry, Flamers can really move around the battlefield. Their shooting power is devastating at long range. And they're the best melee non-MC Tzeentch unit in the book.

 

That being said, you do NOT want to use them in melee, despite the advantages they present over standard Horrors. With T4 and a 4+ inv, they don't last long. So, putting these together, Flamers follow what I like to call the "Eldar principle" - that is, hit hard and fast, then die. With Breath of Chaos, even a minimum sized unit of these guys can easily polish off a Tactical Squad.

 

Upgrade wise, don't bother with Bolt. I've had occasional successes with it, but for the most part it's pretty useless.

 

And if you ever spend a turn using Warpfire, even ONCE, you're wasting your Flamers. They're a very "in your face" unit.

[Vassakov]

Ok, my thoughts on the Flamers - they are the single best distraction the Daemons army can offer. If they drop well they can do a lot of damage to 1 unit. As a result, your opponent will do their level best to kill them - thus leaving potentially more dangerous units free to continue the merry slaughter!

[==Me==]

Flamers are extremely versatile. They move 12", have good BS for warpfire, and breath. I initially used them as a suicide drop unit, but trying new things out opened up a lot of possibilities for them. They can put the hurt on anything and move very quickly so you can be where you need to be.

 

Something to consider, 4 Flamers with bolt costs 10 points more than a Tzeentch DP w/ bolt and gaze. Flamers have higher movement, more shots, breath and are easier to hide while the DP is better in combat, has BS5, and higher T.

 

Very versatile unit, good for just about anything.

[minigun762]

Like Chaos Terminators, the "easiest" use is 3 Flamers suicide squad. However if you're willing to invest a few more points in them, I think you can get alot more from it.

The reason is because of how Breath of Chaos works. Honestly you only need to hit a squad with 2 of them and you should average 75% wounds, probably enough to wipe out most squads fairly reliably.

This means if you bring say 5-6 in, they smoke the primary target, then recieve alot of incoming fire. If only 1-2 are left, those can jump over and severly wound another squad whereas the smaller squad would be toast.

In this way, even a few Flamers are too deadly to be left alive, thus forcing the opponent to dump extra amount of firepower into the, saving the rest of your force.

[Skell]

I've been using flamers as a 3man suicide squad, but lately I've moved onto an 8man squad and I'm not throwing them away for drop and burn. I've been using them for BS4 warpfire then moving around and cooking what i need to when an opponent presents me a unit where there is little risk from counter assault.

On the otherhand Auto glance on +4 has surprised alot of landraider/dreads with my larger unit size. Being able to immobilize a dread or landraider very fast with ~4 glances hitting(out of a unit of 8 for example) has caught many people off guard.

[Captain Malachi]

Flamers of Tzeentch:

There are two main ways to use this unit, the three man suicide unit, and the larger more versatile unit. The three man unit is the most common way to run them, it’s cheap, powerful, but very, very fragile. Three flamers can decimate most units in one turn, and often cost less. The main point of them though is to die, they take off a good amount of firepower from the rest of your army, as every one you play against knows they have to die or they will run wild through his army, killing units of left right and centre.

 

The larger unit is another valid way to use them. Six to eight is a good choice, and they can be used as more of a mobile reserve unit. With their speed they can be where you need them when you need them, and if you give them bolt you can threaten tanks a bit more. It’s worth noting that if the larger unit takes a lot of fire but aren’t wiped out, you effectively have the smaller unit we mentioned earlier left.

 

The second half could be better, but to be honest I have no experience with larger units of flamers.

[sexiest_hero]

It should be noted that they move as jet bikes. So they will get to you, and they can deny cover so there is no hiding from them. For bigger units dropiing them behind cover the first turn insure the enemy either flees that side of the board, or bring in overwelming fire power to deal with them after they strike.

[Captain Malachi]

Good points, but for the record they move as jump infantry, not jetbikes. Not a great deal if you aren't turboboosting, but I just wanted to get the facts straight.