[Daemon review] Elites.

[sexiest_hero]

Sorry I was thinking jump, and painting eldar:(.

[Raptor1313]

I would only ever suicide-drop flamers as a second-wave unit. You want to Icon them in. Otherwise, they don't land in ideal Breath-spot, and you get a volley of Warpfire before someone smokes the unit.

 

If you want to run them as a more main-line type unit, bring 5-8 or so. Drop them behind terrain. Give the enemy lots of targets. Then, use your mobility to set up your own nasty flamer shots.

 

They aren't JUST a suicide unit, but they can perform admirably as such.

 

Additionally, bear in mind that if you're using them as a suicide unit, you're using up an Elites slot, and our three Elites slots are where we get about the most lethal units in the army.

 

Suicide flamers are cheap, yes, but what will you really get out of them? You might vaporize a unit, but you've also given up on taking a larger elite unit of, say, Fiends or Blood Crushers.

 

I started out liking suicide flamers, but now I'd rather run 5-6 with Bolt or another type of elite. I just can't justify giving up an elite slot for a single-use unit, especially when I could get Bloodcrushers or Fiends.

[Captain Malachi]

Flamers of Tzeentch:

There are two main ways to use this unit, the three man suicide unit, and the larger more versatile unit. The three man unit is the most common way to run them, it’s cheap, powerful, but very, very fragile. Three flamers can decimate most units in one turn, and often cost less. The main point of them though is to die, they take off a good amount of firepower from the rest of your army, as every one you play against knows they have to die or they will run wild through his army, killing units of left right and centre. Just remember to take them in your second wave, you want to icon them in so they can actually get that volley off.

 

The larger unit is another valid way to use them. Six to eight is a good choice, and they can be used as more of a mobile reserve unit. With their speed they can be where you need them when you need them, and if you give them bolt you can threaten tanks a bit more. It’s worth noting that if the larger unit takes a lot of fire but aren’t wiped out, you effectively have the smaller unit we mentioned earlier left. Another plus for this method is that you aren’t wasting your precious elites slots on a doomed unit. A lot of the more veteran players are leaning more towards this method than the suicide unit.

 

That better? I haven't really added much, just a couple of extra sentences.

[Vassakov]

I'm gonna give :) to that - I think one factor might be in the box size, intrigueingly. GW sell them as threes, so people buy one box, run them like that, like them and buy another. Then they whack them in one unit and realise they have more dimensions.

 

However, at the end of the day they are going to die - it's just a question of how much they are going to take with them.

[minigun762]

I think it looks great Cap'n.

I was thinking that oddly enough, Flamers are one of the very best units for killing those annoying Plague Marines in cover.

No cover save, no armor save, no FnP save and ignores T5.

 

The will of Tzeentch maybe?

[Captain Malachi]

Probably true, but a little bit specific for a general review. Good point though, I'll have to remember that next time I face a DG list. Anyway, just give it a little while longer for everyone to agree, then we can move on to bloodcrushers.

[minigun762]

Probably true, but a little bit specific for a general review. Good point though, I'll have to remember that next time I face a DG list. Anyway, just give it a little while longer for everyone to agree, then we can move on to bloodcrushers.

 

Oh I was just thinking out loud, not for the purpose of the tactica.

[==Me==]

Looks fine.

 

Bloodcrushers nothing, I can't wait to do Beasts :P

[Captain Malachi]

Bloodcrushers nothing, I can't wait to do Beasts :D

I honestly feel I may have to get someone else to write that section, depends how I feel on the day really, I just really don't like that unit. I'm getting better though, even suggested them once on warseer for an Epi build (but only after saying nurglings about 60 times).

[Raptor1313]

I like the edit.

 

Only thing I'd add is that you shouldn't rely on Flamers to live through the game.

 

They are just that good at delivering the Breath of Chaos, and once someone notices that it kills an infantryman on a 4+, (and to a lesser degree can shake up vehicles) they'll start killing those things.

 

They just wreck so many expensive non-vehicle units (IE: Terminators, Chaos Cult Troops, non-TH/SS Terminators, Wraithguard....) that they WILL get shot up.

 

As for Beasts of Nurgle, I'm fine with doing that entry.

[Captain Malachi]

Thanks Raptor, I'll try and write it objectively first, and if I can't you can have a go :)

 

In the meantime, bloodcrushers!

 

Yeah, I have to be honest, I love these guys, not quite as killy as fiends, but boy do they make up for it with staying power. An armour save is rare in our army, and having a squad with them is even rarer. The ability to play wound allocation games with units of 4 is just the icing on the cake.

 

Like almost all of Khorne units, they ignore armour saves, so that's good, and with high WS they should hit most attacks. The downside is cost and a massive footprint. Well, them and dreads obviously. Their inability to take out vehicles, combined with fearless, means they have a huge weakness when it comes to walkers. The footprint issue is often looked over, but if you play with a lot of scenery it can severely limit your DS options.

[minigun762]

They're dead killy and quite durable, but the reason I'm not a fan of them is simply put they're so slow!

You have a giant point sink of a squad that waddles up the board, they have a 3+ save because they're going to get more dakka poured into them then pretty much anything else, that or engaged by a walker.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure what they bring that you couldn't get done with more Bloodletters, who are also scoring.

5 Bloodletters have more attacks than 2 Bloodcrushers, same good WS, more wounds and score.

Bloodcrushers have an 3+ save and better strength.

[Captain Malachi]

Yes, speed is an issue as well. The reason to take them over 'letters is that 'letters die in droves to lasgun fire, while 'crushers just walk through it and smash you over the head with big swords. That 3+ save means it takes three times as many shots to kill them, they're T5 so aren't wounded as easy, have two wounds each and can play wound allocation games to boost their survivability even further.

[Raptor1313]

Personally, I like them for the killyness and durability. 2-3 Bloodcrushers is on par with a Daemon Prince in terms of cost and killyness. Smaller units get around the footprint, and with 4-5 of them you can play wound allocation games. I mean, 95 points gets you two with an instrument, 145 gets you 3 with an instrument and rending.

 

T5 with a 3+ save and two wounds is a whole lot more durable than bloodletters. S5, 3 attacks, and furious charge on power weapons is more killy than S4 and 2 attacks.

 

Bloodcrushers are, in that sense, a bigger and meaner version of the Bloodletter. But, the thing that sets them apart is that they do not score. Why is this important?

 

Do you really care if the Bloodcrushers get shot up after they do their job? You have to keep Bloodletters alive to score, and everyone knows they're lethal in assault, AND scoring? And easy targets? I'd rather keep my troops alive to score.

 

Now, on the other hand, Bloodcrushers kind of remind me of Nob Bikers. They're big, burly, pretty durable, and abjectly lethal in assault. Bringing 3x8 is a great way to get punched in the gonads if you're doing it on a friendly night.

 

On the other hand? Bloodcrusher Spam is one-dimensional. Does the enemy have Ironclads or other walkers? Is the enemy mobile? You ARE a massive unit. 8 60mm bases have a huge footprint on the table. It's not too hard to mishap or eat some difficult terrain tests. If they're not in the first wave, Icons are damned near mandatory. Additionally, large bloodcrusher units are EXPENSIVE. 320 for the 8, and to get the command stuff it's another 20-40 points or so.

 

EDIT: I think it really comes into its own as a problem on deployment. Just take several 60mm bases and configure them as par the Deep-STrike Template Cluster Mambo. We're talking a circle that's about 180cm wide, and given potential scatters, you're not left with a lot of deployment options. Set up in large circles, run to scatter a little.

 

Bloodcrushers also can't do a blessed thing against AV14, so Land Raiders can roll around and laugh and pepper them. They'll never catch up to any Eldar (or dark eldar) hovercraft that isn't waiting around for them.

 

I think that BLoodcrushers are best used in units of 2-4 as a stand-in for a monstrous creature. in terms of price and lethality, it's about accurate, and it lets you take 3 faux-MCs, two greater daemons, and 3 heavy support choices.

 

I think they should avoid Dreadnoughts like the plague, as they realistically can't hack it. One guy with rending? 3 S5-6 attacks with rending. Not enough attacks to really get the mileage out of it. Rending is more of a 'just in case' thing, or a means of playing wound allocation games.

 

Beyond that? Drop them, run them at the enemy. Either they get shot to death, or they eradicate what they hit. I mean, hell, a pair of them on the charge is enough to clear out just about any non-melee unit.

 

In terms of Bloodcrusher spam, I'm leaning towards supporting them about like this...

2 Tzeentch Chariot Heralds

Fateweaver

2x7 Bloodcrushers (rending + instrument)

5 Flamers w/ Bolt

3x8-9 Horrors w/ Bolt

 

I do this, and post it here to point out the weaknesses of the BLoodcrusher...speed, and like any unit they're in trouble if they hit a large tarpit. Not as bad as a Bloodthirster, mind you (....dear god, ever watched one flub a few turns and spend about 5-6 assault phases stuck in with an Ork mob? ) but it's something to think about.

[Captain Malachi]

EDIT: I think it really comes into its own as a problem on deployment. Just take several 60mm bases and configure them as par the Deep-STrike Template Cluster Mambo. We're talking a circle that's about 180cm wide, and given potential scatters, you're not left with a lot of deployment options. Set up in large circles, run to scatter a little.

I think you mean 180mm, 180cm is almost 2 metres :wub:

 

Not as bad as a Bloodthirster, mind you (....dear god, ever watched one flub a few turns and spend about 5-6 assault phases stuck in with an Ork mob?)

Yes :P

 

Good points Raptor, I knew there was a reason we kept you around ;) I'll write something up tomorrow, I have to help my friend with something now, and get it up as soon as I realistically can.

[Vassakov]

Bloodcrushers have their uses - part of me is increasingly convinced that one of the key tactics is to hurl a lot of very nasty looking units at the enemy and then watch them try to figure out which one to shoot first.

 

'Crushers themselves are buffed Bloodletters - they are stonger, more resiliant (in fact, they're nastily resisilant) and will do more damage to MEq's than any other elites option. Here's why - Flamers, whilst potent are as are will usually only get one round of shooting in vs MEq's before being double tapped back to the warp. Fiends suffer from the rending nerf, and whilst again potent will often take wounds back as they aren't that resisilant. They also have the "death-by-light-fire" syndrome.

 

'Crushers will shrug off an obscene amount of fire - an entire Tactical Squad rapid firing can be useless; are extremely durable once in combat and have S5 power weapons (S6 on the charge.) Even a small squad of 3/4 can wipe out 2-3 Tactical Squads over the course of a game and because of the 3+/5++ they are resiliant against all weapons. Combine that with the nasty wound allocation games, and you've got a very nasty unit.

 

Plus, the models are amazing (if bloody expensive.)

 

Downsides, as mentioned are that they are infantry, and will die horribly to Dreadnoughts.

[minigun762]

I think that BLoodcrushers are best used in units of 2-4 as a stand-in for a monstrous creature. in terms of price and lethality, it's about accurate, and it lets you take 3 faux-MCs, two greater daemons, and 3 heavy support choices.

 

All great points Raptor but this is my favorite.

I agree that 4 is the magic number with Bloodcrushers. Any less and you are probably just giving up an easy kill point. Any more and it becomes too much of a point sink.

At this level its the same cost as 10 Bloodletters which is a fair price to pay.

 

Having said that, I personally feel that a combination of Fiends and Bloodletters would be superior than Bloodcrushers, but thats just me.

 

Its funny because 'Crushers are totally my version of Cap'n M's Beast of Nurgle, I just don't think they're worth it. :D

[Raptor1313]

I think you mean 180mm, 180cm is almost 2 metres :lol:

 

Dude, it'll feel like 180cm when you're deep-striking it, especially if the enemy fans out. :lol:

 

Normally I'd point and laugh at the guy who spreads out on turn one since that makes it easier to focus my forces, but the large drop-size means he might be able to kill a couple. And if he's fast? He gets to run away another day.

 

I do like fiends for my elites (...says the guy who scratch-built 15. Fiend stats = win, fiend sculpt = fail, in internet-ese :) )

 

Fiends have speed, hit 'n' run, and sheer volume of attacks, but 6 WS4, S5 rending attacks are not usually as lethal as 3-4 S5-6 WS5 attacks.

 

I agree with Vassakov, though. If you're looking at a couple Bloodthirsters and a couple units of Bloodcrushers that are fairly close, you've got some tough questions to ask yourself about target priority. Fiends? When the enemy shoots, fiends die. 4+ cover or 5+ normal just isn't enough. I'm honestly not worried about rending with fiends; it's just a nice bonus unless I'm trying to bag heavy armor. Here, fiends have a 'possibly can' vs. the Bloodcrusher's sad face when it has to deal with AV12 or better.

 

I think 2-4 is the way to run 'em, ideally 3-4. If you are running them, though, you're running them on the understanding that ALL they will ever do is haul ass towards the other guy, make him sweat, and make him die if they get into melee with anything other than dreads. T5 is also pretty durable, but still vulnerable to torrents of fire.

 

5-8 is points-heavy, and will make people harm you physically.

 

I also think the model is full of win, but have issues dropping $25 a head on them. I converted mine from Chaos Knights, where 5 of them run me about $30 plus tax, after ordering 60mm bases.

[Captain Malachi]

How does this sound?

 

Bloodcrushers:

Like all of Khorne’s units, these guys are very powerful in melee. Power weapons, strength five and weapon skill five means even a small unit can wipe out tactical squads in one or two turns. They also have durability on their side, toughness five combined with a 3+ armour and a 5+ invulnerable mean they can take a surprising amount of small arms fire and live through to combat. If you take four of them with all the upgrades you get to play wound allocation games as well, meaning they’re even harder to kill off.

 

However, despite being very killy, they do have some downsides, not least of which is their speed. They’re an infantry unit, so despite their powerful close combat abilities, a mildly fast army can simply walk away, and when you can’t shoot that can be pretty nasty. Fortunately we have other units that can tie them up or we can simply use our deep strike ability to get in a good position, but it does require a little planning. Another downside is their enormous foot print, a full squad will be nearly impossible to deep strike safely, and even average sized squads can be hard. Finally, you really, really need to avoid walkers, strength five and a single model with rending is not a good way to kill dreads, and since they’re fearless they’ll be stuck there until you can bail them out. Not a good place to have a 200 point unit. We feel small units of 3-4 to be the most effective.

[minigun762]

How does this sound?

 

Bloodcrushers:

We feel small units of 3-4 to be the most effective.

 

You might want to say that at that level, they're about equivalent to a Khornish Daemon Prince with more wounds and no options for Wings.

[Vassakov]

I'm happy with that. Sounds excellent actually. I'm not sure i entirely agree with Minigun though - they are far better vs Infantry but massively inferior to Vehicles, lacking the MC rule.

[Raptor1313]

They do fine vs. AV10 on the rear as long as there are a few of them and it hasn't gone far.

 

I think that's generally what there is to say about 'em.

[Captain Malachi]

Vassakovs right though, without the MC rule they will never be as good as a Khorne prince with might against armour. S6+D6 is great, but S6+2D6 is better. Although they do get more attacks, does someone want to actually work out the odds? I'm quite curious now.

[Raptor1313]

One Khornate DP w/ might is good for six attacks. Right there, you need two Bloodcrushers to beat that base.

 

Bloodcrushers will never be able to touch dreads or ironclads. Vs AV10....

 

S6 + d6 means you penetrate 1/3 of the time and glance 1/6 of the time.

 

S6 + 2d6 wants a 5 to penetrate....each hit from the Daemon Prince has something like, I'm ballparking 60-70% chance to nail the ever-lovin' crap out of AV10.

 

I don't really think it bears doing the math; just out and out once you hit AV11 the DP is better off. The real question is the attacks; are you hitting somethign that moved, or something that's still, or waht?

[Captain Malachi]

Ah, it's not really important, if we're done with the bloodcrushers we can move on to beasts. I'll most likely just let you guys have your say and then sum it up.