[Daemon review] Elites.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Beasts are one funky unit, they're like Plaguebearers on crack. Half the time they're sprinting around and pumping out buckets of attacks, but then the other half they just crash. A pretty darn random unit. Only really worth considering in an Epi build.

[Raptor1313]

First off, looking at the rest of the Elite Choices...

 

There's no reason to take beasts in a mixed build. Beasts are slow (and purposeful), and not particularly lethal. There is the CHANCE they will crank out six poisoned attacks. T5 and a 5+ with feel no pain.

 

Flamers kill on 4+ if they can torch it. Fiends crank out absurd numbers of attacks. Bloodcrushers will DESTROY any non-walker, non-land-raider in melee.

 

What does the Beast of Nurgle do that they cannot?

 

Short answer? Nothing, and does it worse.

 

Now, consider the Beast in an Epedemius build.

 

An Epi build that wants to rely on the tally brings Daemon Princes to run it up, but Daemon Princes won't necessarily last the game.

 

Nurglings are decent in melee if you don't expend them as Tarpits.

 

Plaguebeares, unless taken in truly epic quantities, will never be that good in melee. Hell, even in massive quantities (...once played a guy that brought 3x19 Plaguebearers, and 3x6 Nurglings, but at that point Epi was incidental; the army just had LUDICRIOUS staying power...).

 

So, with a tally moving up? Beasts can crank out a decent number of attacks. The enemy always has to worry about beasts rampaging at him with 5-6 attacks per, so suddenly those 4 beasts? 20 attacks, 10 hits, and then soem beatings. Nothing else can potnetially crank out that kind of abuse.

 

This is ONLY in an Epi build, though. They're secondary brawlers, once the Tally is moving at a decent clip. It's because of the random attacks.

 

Beyond that? Their durability is meaningless vs. mass quantities of power weapons (...assault terminators, Ork nobs, doomed-up Banshees....) or just mass quantities of fire. (Lootas, Eldar, guard...).

 

So ultimately? They've got a potential niche in an Epi build as second-line sluggers, as ost folks will want to, y'know, KO the Daemon Princes that are rackign up the tally. Then, they become solid infantry killers, but still have issues with armor. But, that's just the nature of an Epedemius build, and why I've seen tongue soulgrinders in them.

 

Ignore Noxious Touch. It's neat, but you'll get it with Epi, and there aren't enough upgrade options to really make you want to muck with wound-allocation games.

 

Outside of an Epi build? If you REALLY want Nurgly units, take Plaguebearers so you can at least score. The other elites are faster and more lethal with less help.

 

Plus, the model is hit-or-miss, and as far as I'm concerned it's a 'miss.'

[Vassakov]

I'll be honest - outside an Epi build I feel they're next to worthless. I mean, they're similar to Plaugebearers but lack the ability properly tarpit or hold objectives.

 

Even in a mono Nurgle list, the 3/4 you'd need would come to 100+ pts. You might as well get more Plaguebearers or a GUO to be honest. Plus, the model is expensive and fugly. I can see how 4D6 Power Weapon Attacks wounding on a 2+ is scary, but frankly Nurglings do a better job of it.

[minigun762]

I think we can agree that outside of a Mono-Nurgle Tally list, the Beast is not competitive with the other elite choices.

 

Within said list, its main competition is Nurglings and I think we'd really have to run some numbers on those to see if one is statistically superior. For the time being we're assume they're equivalent choices.

[Captain Malachi]

Thing is, nurglings always get 3 attacks, and they cost less than half the price points wise. Not to mention it's a hell of a lot easier to get a cover save with them.

 

The only reason I'd take beasts over nurglings would be if I had filled out my troops choices with plaguebearers. However, I'd more likely realise that taking 60 plaguebearers is overkill and swap some out ^_^

[Raptor1313]

Ever seen what flamers do to nurglings?

 

Regular ones wound on 3+, heavies on 2+. 5+ invulnerable save; each unsaved wound doubles as they are Swarms. Rack up, say, four Nurgling bases with a heavy flamer? 4 wounds, one saved, and suddenly 2 nurgling bases are GONE.

 

Same with blast weapons...

 

Now, in cover, Nurglings are T3 with a 3+ save. Not bad vs. Normal fire. Beasts are T5/FNP with a 4+ cover save.

 

in cover:

VS S4 fire:

.66 hits wound vs. nurglings; they save on 3+ so each S4 hit is worth .33 wounds.

.33 hits wound vs. Beasts; they save 1/2 (.16 wounds), then FNP for another 1/2 of that, so each S4 shot vs. beasts is good for 0.08 wounds.

 

in the open vs. S4:

Nurglings save 1/3 wounds, so .44 wounds

Beasts save 1/3 wounds, so .22 get through, then FNP means .11 get through.

 

VS S5 fire

0.83 hits wound vs. nurglings; save 1/3, so each is worth .27 wounds

0.5 hits wound vs. Beasts; save 1/2 (.25 wounds), FNP 1/2, so 0.125 wounds.

 

in the open vs. S5:

0.53 wounds on Nurglings

0.33 after saves on Beasts, 0.1667 after FNP

 

Beasts will always be more durable than nurglings.

 

As for attacks? Beasts should average 3.5 attacks.

 

The Nurgling comes out on top in terms of speed, for certain.

 

Beasts are 35 a head; Nurglings are 13.

 

So, then, is a beast worth 3 nurglings?

2 wounds at T5, FNP vs 9 wounds at T3; both with 5+ saves.

 

9 attacks at WS2/I2 from Nurglings

average 3.5 attacks at WS3, I2, S4/Poison on 4+ from the beast.

 

The beast is actually less reliant on the tally. On an average turn from ~equivalent point values...

 

Vs average T4 targets with WS4 (...most rank-and-file type melee troops. I think we can all agree Khorne daemons will own Nurgle daemons in CC because of I4-5 and power weapons are pretty much what kills nurgle troops)

 

Beast: 3.5 attacks, 1.75 hits; after re-rolls to wound: 1.3125 wounds.

Nurglings: 9 attacks. 4.5 hits. 1.5 wounds.

 

So, we can see that on average, an equivalent points value of Beasts is not that different vs. an equivalent points value of Nurglings.

 

Beast Low: 1 attack. .5 hits, about .3 wounds.

Beast Average (for sake of comparison): 1.3125 wounds

Beast High: 6 attacks. 3 hits, 1.5 wounds, re-rolls for Poison, 2.25 wounds.

 

Note these figures are assuming NO tally in effect.

 

So, on average, nurglings are about as good as beasts in CC.

 

How many basic S4 hits will it take to kill 3 nurglings vs. a Beast?

Beast: 2 wounds; each S4 non-power-weapon is worth .11 wounds. 2/.11= 18.18 wounds

Nurglings: 9 wounds; each S4 non-power-weapon hit worth .44. 9/.44 = 20.45

 

Without power weapons, the nurglings are a bit more durable per equivalent cost.

With power weapons, nurglings are without a doubt more durable. The same goes for AP1/2 weapons, or Instant Death-causing weapons (on Beasts, this is limited to S10, so rail gun slugs, dreadnought CCWs, Warboss Power Klaws, etc. About the only S10 non-AP1/2 weapon is a Carnifex Venom Cannon.)

 

So....what do we have at the end of this analysis?

 

Beasts are on average about on par with Nurglings in terms of lethality; but this depends on the random attacks.

 

Beasts are less durable per equivalent cost (...but not by much) unless we negate Feel No Pain, in which case the Nurgling's preponderance of wounds helps them.

 

Nurglings are terribly allergic to blast weapons and template weapons as they are Small Targets, whereas Beasts are not terribly worried about them unless they happen to be Plasma Cannons (or facsimilies thereof).

 

I think at the end of the day, I'd say Beasts have some viability over Nurglings (because flamers are EVERYWHERE, and things like plasma aren't as common what with hordes. Otherwise, Beasts need tank-hunting weapons to really put the hurt on them, and those will be diverted towards the attendant Daemon Princes early on). I would still take some of both, as when the tally gets up both of them are better than regular plaguebearers because both of them can crank out attacks.

 

Psychologically, your opponent has to watch five beasts roll 6's for attacks ONCE and see them whip out 20-30 dice for a unit of 4-5 Beasts before he starts worrying. The enemy will ALWAYS have to worry about good dice with the Beasts. Nurglings are a known quantity, for better or worse.

 

Neither Nurglings nor Beasts score, so that's pretty irrelevant. Beasts, however, can handle AV10 rear-armor vehicles, which gives them an edge over Nurglings.

[minigun762]

Very nice Raptor, seems to confirm my earlier belief that both are effective in a Tally list.

[Captain Malachi]

Seems to confirm to me that overall nurglings are better to be honest. Although I can see that in certain environments beasts might be better.

[minigun762]

Seems to confirm to me that overall nurglings are better to be honest. Although I can see that in certain environments beasts might be better.

 

Seemed more even to me, one of those "this guy is better in this situation" deals.

 

So is that everything with Elites? I can't imagine Beasts will be much of a writeup.

[Raptor1313]

The one big thing to take away from equivalent points, though, is 'What Does A Flamer do?"

 

Vs Nurglings, it'll quite possible eat a base or two. Vs. a beast? Might wound it. MIGHT.

 

I think it's a matter of how many flamer templates you see, to be honest. I don't know about you guys, but my average marine build packs about 2-3 flamers and 3-5 heavy flamers. I will happily burn the crap out of any Nurglings I see, but T5+FNP = me a sad panda. If I see lots of nurglings, it's going to smell like bouncing burned boogers.

 

Overall, I gotta say that their durability is about equivalent, as the beasts shrug off wounds more readily, but Nurglings get a better cover save. Lethality is nearly the same....overall, I think beasts have a place.

 

EDIT: at any rate, if Mal's not going to take it, here's my suggestion for Beasts of Nurgle

 

First, unless you're playing an Epedemius list, skip Beasts of Nurgle. For a little more than a pair of plaguebearers, you get something that's only a little more effective in melee, only a little more durable, and can't score. Plaguebearers are simply superior to Beasts in a mixed-god list, as they can score.

 

However, Beasts might have a place in an Epedemius-based list. If you wish to take them, you're taking them as a secondary assault unit that starts coming into its own when the Tally is partially or fully activated. In this capacity, it competes with Nurglings. Both have multiple attacks, though the Beast averages 3.5 attacks. Its attacks are also poison, whereas the Nurgling hits with a mighty S3 (at least until the tally hits 10, then it's 2+ for everyone). Beasts benefit from the Tally's buff to FNP, at which point they become substantially more durable than the Nurglings. Beasts are also much more resilient vs. flamers, which is a concern because as 'horde' armies become popular, dispensing burning death to horde armies becomes popular.

 

Nurglings beat Beasts on speed, as Beasts are Slow 'n' Purposeful. Nurglings always have a fixed three attacks, and for little more than the cost of a single beast, one buys three Nurgling bases. Nurglings also have a 3+ cover save, but are only T3. The Nurglings have number of wounds to the beasts' resiliency, which means the Nurglings are much more adept at absorbing power weapon wounds. The Nurglings are ALSO more likely to lose combats early on, and suffer No Retreat! wounds.

 

Ultimately, in an Epedemius build Beasts should at least draw some consideration. They are durable unless someone can negate Feel No Pain, and they are unlikely to draw attention early on. Without the Tally up, they can tarpit, waddle, and draw fire. With the Tally at 10 or better, a random number of attacks that wound on 2+ becomes a serious issue. The enemy always has to worry about a unit of 5 beasts suddenly cranking out 20-30 attacks in a single turn.

 

Give beasts a chance if you're playing epedemius. If not, skip them entirely. They are, without a doubt, the worst of the Elites choices in a mixed-god list.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Looks good :D

 

Only, isn't his name spelt Epidemius? You know, spelling counts and all that.

[==Me==]

I like it.

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry guys, I was getting to it, had some stuff to sort out. Anyway, should we really be comparing them to nurglings so strongly? I mean, that's a list building thing, it doesn't really affect the beasts themselves. I think those sort of comments should be left until we go through the Epidemius build later.

 

Now, they are very reliant on the tally, so that must be mentioned, I simply feel that making their entry a beast-nurgling comparison is a bad idea, as we can do that later.

 

Here's what I'd put:

Beasts of Nurgle:

There is only one use for these guys, and that’s in an Epidemius build. If you look at the other elites choices you’ll quickly realise they are outshined in every way in a mixed build by the other choices, except maybe at monstrous creature hunting.

 

In an Epidemius list though, they excel. With the tally up they make excellent second wave beaters. By that I mean keep them back until the tally is up and then go all out with the attack. We’ll go in to more detail later when we review the Epidemius build as a whole. For now just remember that they are only good in mono-Nurgle tally lists.

 

It's not perfect, I just feel it fits better with what we're trying to do right now with a unit by unit review. I'd just like to avoid reviewing nurglings in the same entry :)

[minigun762]

I like Cap'n M's better.

 

The discussion between Nurglings and Beasts is important, but important in the Tally army list section.

 

I think its sufficent to say that outside of that list, Beasts are the worst Elite choices and within that list, they're a totally viable.

[Raptor1313]

Yeah, I think Mal's works better for the Elites section.

 

Still, even for hunting MC, I think Beasts are crap.

 

Flamers wound 'em on a 4+ at close range, so a unit of 4-6 flamers should be good for 2-3 wounds, which will kill or seriously maim a pristine MC.

 

Bloodcrushers are looking at 3's to hit, and 4-5 to wound. If they can get the charge on any basic T6 one, 3 bloodcrushers net you 3.96 wounds, which is a dead MC.

 

Fiends are similarly effective, I think. A beat-up unit of 4 fiends cranks out 24 attacks. 5's wound, 6's rend, so that's two wounds and two saves off the fiends.

 

On average, assuming 4 Beasts got a charge off on an MC, that's for 18 attacks. 9 hit, 4.5 wound, and with the average 3+ save on MCs, they manage 1.5 wounds. Dancing with an MC also negates Feel No Pain, since the MC ignores armor saves.

 

So I'd have to refute the 'MC hunting' theory on Beasts and just leave them as the worst in a mixed-god list.

 

Though I'll maintain that when we get to Epi, Beast v. Nurglings will be a bit relevant, but I think Epi builds will probably need a discussion of their own, as a distinct sub-set of army lists.

[Captain Malachi]

Thanks for the mathhammer there Raptor, I only mentioned MC hunting in a theory, good to see I'm wrong, I'll edit that out in a bit.

 

Edit- Here you go, final copy.

Beasts of Nurgle:

There is only one use for these guys, and that’s in an Epidemius build. If you look at the other elites choices you’ll quickly realise they are outshined in every way in a mixed build by the other choices.

 

In an Epidemius list though, they excel. With the tally up they make excellent second wave beaters. By that I mean keep them back until the tally is up and then go all out with the attack. We’ll go in to more detail later when we review the Epidemius build as a whole. For now just remember that they are only good in mono-Nurgle tally lists.

 

Hopefully we start on the troops tomorrow.

[Raptor1313]

I don't think it's that they're BAD MC hunters, it's just that all the others are better. I'd still try not to get a Carnifex or Wraithlord into CC with something that totally laughs at my high toughness like that. Same goes for getting 'em near Plaguebearers, though. Do you really want to get a T6-8 model into close combat with something that wounds you on a 4+? I mean, Wraithlords are buff and all, but 3 attacks on the charge, hit on 3's, wound on 2s....that's a couple dead plaguebeaerers or a dead Beast. Then I'm riding a 3+ save, and I've done marines long enough to know 3+ saves don't last forever.

 

I'd honestly kind of wondered about it 'til I ran the numbers. Then again, there'll be that time where you get 4 beasts charging in with 7 attacks per, at which point they're going to skeletonize that Carnifex. There'll also be the time four beasts get a total of two attacks each on the charge, and you'll cry.

 

But, hell, crying when the dice spit in your eye is just part of the Daemons.

 

I think the entry looks good.