Dread Wolf Master Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Can i attach a WGPL on a space marine bike to an attack bike squad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Bjoern Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Just checked the rules and can´t find anything against it. Sure, you can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJumppanen Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Can i attach a WGPL on a space marine bike to an attack bike squad? ICs are possible too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 They are not a squad (pack) but a squadron. That's why you can't find anything, WGPL can be attached to packs not squadrons of attack bikes, landspeeders etc. Regards, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Its been argued the other way to.... they arent vehicles. Its the only nonvehicle unit theres any question about in fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Its been argued the other way to.... they arent vehicles. Its the only nonvehicle unit theres any question about in fact. Maybe but it says in C:SW, "At the start of a battle, one Wolf Guard model may be attached to each Space wolves pack as a leader for the pack..." (my bold) While the Blood Claws bikers are named as a pack in the title and described as a squad, landspeeders and attack bikes are specifically called squadrons. Now just because I've not heard of it being done before doesn't mean that it's wrong but I think that a player might be called out on this one if they didn't run it past an opponent first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Im just saying, landspeeders are not applicable here... but yes, it does says squaddron on the attack bikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Isn't most of this just semantics? I would think that for a Space Wolf army any unit above a single model is a pack, no matter the type of vehicle they use. In the "Chapter Organization" page at the back of the codex, it mentions nothing of squadrons but talks very much about "packs". The Blood Claws Bikes are also a pack, but somehow Attack Bikes wouldn't be in a "pack"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Semantics maybe but with rules that's important. The fluff on the Chapter Organisation is irrelevant for the rules. In the rules a Pack Leader can be assigned to any Pack. Attack Bikes are not a Pack so no they cannot have a Pack Leader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 So a regular bike can operate in a pack but attack bikes cannot? I believe this squadron thing is because we take the Attack Bike from the Space Marine Codex, but the squadron term should not be applied to Space Wolves as our units are packs, not squads or squadrons. It just seems odd that the same Grey Hunters can be in a pack if on foot but the moment they mount Attack Bikes they are no longer a pack.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Odd yes but that's how the rules go and just because it doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective changes the rules not at all. Unless the Attack Bike Squadrons are specifically stated as becoming "Packs" for rules purposes when we take them, they are not a pack but a regular Marine unit or Squadron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm not looking at it from a fluff perspective, Space Wolf units are packs....Grey Hunter packs, Blood Claw packs, etc....anything that we take would be put into a unit type that the Space Wolves employ...hence packs. If you go with a 100% RAW, a Wolf Guard Leader wouldn't get to lead Grey Hunters or Blood Claws as in the Squad: portion it specifically calls them a "sqaud". The word "pack" is only used in the title of the Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (and yes Long Fangs as well). There has to be some interpritation in this case. Either Space Wolf units are called packs or squads. If they are squads then WGLs can't be fielded in those units.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm not looking at it from a fluff perspective, Space Wolf units are packs....Grey Hunter packs, Blood Claw packs, etc....anything that we take would be put into a unit type that the Space Wolves employ...hence packs. No that's fluff not rules. Fluff wise all Space Wolf units are Packs. Rules wise only those with Pack in their title are packs. If you go with a 100% RAW, a Wolf Guard Leader wouldn't get to lead Grey Hunters or Blood Claws as in the Squad: portion it specifically calls them a "sqaud". The word "pack" is only used in the title of the Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (and yes Long Fangs as well). Also no, even Boyz mobs are called "Squads" in their unit type, the important thing here is the title of the unit, hense what the unit is and whether it has the word "Pack" in it. You can't assign a Pack Leader to Bodyguard units as they aren't titled "Packs." Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs and Blood Claw Biker units are the only ones with the title Pack so they are the only ones that can take a Pack Leader. I suppose technically you could give a Long Fang unit a Wolf Guard Pack Leader but that would be a bit superfluous. There has to be some interpritation in this case. Either Space Wolf units are called packs or squads. If they are squads then WGLs can't be fielded in those units.... They are both. Your confusing name and unit type, unit type and name do not equate to the same thing. A Blood Claw Pack is also a Squad, an Attack Bike Squadron is also a Squad. However a Blood Claw Squad is a pack, an Attack Bike unit is not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Ok, I get what you are saying but allow me one last comment if I may. Space Wolf Scouts....they are not given the title of pack however they are allowed a Wolf Guard Leader, or are they? According to the RAW WGL lead a unit that is a pack, the title of pack is not in the title of the unit entry in the codex (which is where i presume it would need to be) although the word pack is further down in the unit rules. The reason I say this is that we have to limit ourselves just because the word pack isn't in the Space Marine Codex, even though we know it would be in the unit entry if Attack Bikes were in the Space Wolf Codex instead. In any case I want to see what you think of the Scout thing, but otherwise I see the points, even if it unfairly limits us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 They are in our codex... under fast attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 You know whats strange though, they are called Attack Bike Squads in the Space Marine Codex.....not Attack Bike Squadrons.....I just noticed that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1912798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 You are right, it has. I wasn't hung up so much on the term pack as that is merely the name for SW squads and, previously, ABs weren't squads. So let's approach this logically, to join the unit the WGPL must have the same equipment, so a jump pack with jump pack equipped BCs or a bike to join bikers. An attack bike is not an option available under wargear. Okay, then you might say, put him on a normal bike - that's logical but, again, not technically legal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1913052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Where does it say he MUST have the same means of moving? I cannot find anything specifically saying that this type of character cannot join a squad/pack of Attack Bikes, heck as far as I can see he doesn't even HAVE to have a bike himself (although from the rules it would mean the Attack Bikes are slowed down as squads can only move as fast as the slowest member). I may be missing something but from what I can see all you would have to do is give him a bike so that he doesn't slow down the pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1913108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 *nods* you can give a JP squad a WGPL without a JP... you just hamstrung the unit into moving 6 instead of 12, but you can do it. Putting him on a normal bike would even keep the mobility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1913289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 i dont use attack bikes anymore, for no other reason than i can't shoe horn them into my list, but if i did and included a pack leader i would be ever so slighty peeved if someone said i couldn't because in codex: space maines they aren't called a pack... it seems to me that its a case were some people are too busy quoting 'raw' to use any common sense in the matter... as far as i'm concerned any non vehicle squad in the space wolf army is a pack (as it is the term the wolves use to refer to their squads) and as such if i'm paying the points i shouldn't be denied the option because of the wording in their unit entry from codex: space marines oh and as a side note, you don't have to be on a bike to lead a bike squad (its in an faq) but as stated the squad would be limited to the 6" movement speed of the attatched character Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1913441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 i dont use attack bikes anymore, for no other reason than i can't shoe horn them into my list, but if i did and included a pack leader i would be ever so slighty peeved if someone said i couldn't because in codex: space maines they aren't called a pack...it seems to me that its a case were some people are too busy quoting 'raw' to use any common sense in the matter... That's the trouble, my common sense says that someone adding a dismounted WGPL to an attack bike squadron is taking the proverbial. It's always dangerous to assume that those who interpret the rules differently to you are "too busy quoting raw...", they may just have a different opinion to you :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1914313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Well I think the biggest thing was that as the OP said he thought they were SQUADRONS.....and WGL could only lead PACKS (i.e. squads). It may have been the case back in 3rd Ed and even 4 Ed, however in the 5th Ed SM Codex they are now termed as Assault Bike Squads....as I'm sure we are all aware, Space Wolves use the term Pack to represent a squad (keeping in tradition with our Wolfiness). So therefore, WGL are now able to lead a pack of Assault Bikers (even if he's not on a Bike himself, although taking a Bike would be the prudent thing as it prevents him from slowing the rest down). The second thing was that WGLs don't have access to Assault Bikes. Now, they wouldn't as that would be hard to explain in a profile...who is the gunner? Does the Attack Bike use the stats of the WGL or what? So the simple solution, at least in my opinion, would be to again have the WGL on a regular Space Marine Bike...which solves the problem of which profile to use (his since he is the only rider) and how to not slow down the rest of the pack. Am I wrong in any of my thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1914326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 My understanding that we have WGPL in the broadly the same way that other chapters can have Sergeants. So, although C:SW doesn't stop those wanting to put WGPL without JPs with JP equipped BCs or one without a bike with bikers, they may well have considered that common sense would prevail or, at least, players would soon work out how pointless that would be! C:SM says that the unit composition is 1-3 attack bikes - no room for a biker sergeant or the placing of a sergeant in one of the bikes. So, just as ABs in S:SM cannot have sergeants and since we must take our ABs directly from that Codex, then attaching a WGPL just because the wording hasn't taken SW into account sits very wrongly with me. Maybe it should have been picked up by the FAQs or maybe it is a deliberate omission to allow the wolves to be the only Chapter in the Imperium to have this ability - you can make your own call on that I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1914364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 But they ARENT seargents, never have been, and I hope they wont ever become seargents. The Wolf Gaurd goes where the Wolf Lord says.... and if he says he wants a leader with good equipment to go with that squad/pack/squadron/unit/detachment of attack bikes then by god thats where hes going. This is quite frankly the first Ive heard about not being able to take a pack leader with them, and Im somewhat confused why anyone would say it. If you want to drop 80pts, because lets face it thats as cheap as you can run one, on a one wound close combat guy for a unit of heavy weapons then enjoy. For the price of a packleader with PF, Combi, Bike, and himself you can almost get two attack bikes. This isnt twinkery or absurdity, this is something thats been open before and I think should be open now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1914374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzyman1981 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Well Sergeants are very different things than Wolf Guard Pack Leaders. Firstly, WGPLs are assigned to a pack as an afterthought, a Sgt is part of the squad from the beginning. You can't just CHOOSE to take a Sgt or not. The squad either has one or it doesn't. Space Wolves can take a pack of the same type of unit, i.e. the basic infantry Grey Hunters - Tac Squad. However, a Tac Squad HAS to take the Sgt whereas a Grey Hunter pack doesn't HAVE to take a WGL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162676-attack-bike-question/#findComment-1914436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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