Kor'sarro Khan or Generic Bike Captain?

[Jackelope King]

I'm running a list that includes a single, full-sized squad of bikes, and I like the added killy-ness and scoring potential that a bike captain of some form or another adds. Typically, I like to get a Captain on a bike with hellfire rounds and a relic blade (which weighs in at 175 pts), which is quite killy, but doesn't really multiply the killy-ness of the bike squad he accompanies. That said, I'm considering Kor'sarro Khan in his place.

 

For 40 points more, I get to give the bike squad that Khan rides with Furious Charge (S5, I5 Marines are always fun, especially when mounted) and Hit & Run (kind of a meh from me... I never really understood why one would want to use this ability), and gives the whole army the ability to outflank (which I really enjoy... I'm considering the joy of outflanking with Plasma Cannon Dreadnoughts or a squad of Multi Melta Attack Bikes, and under the rules for deploying objectives, it's pretty easy to send a nice scoring unit of marines in a Rhino from the table edge to a nearby objective). However, Khan would also be sacrificing the Hellfire rounds (which are quite nice when you're firing at BS 5 from a twin-linked weapon) and a Relic Blade (essentially -1 strength for this squad's leader on the charge). His sword isn't bad, really, since the usual rule of "everything you'd want to Instant Death is immune to it anyway" doesn't apply when this squad is supposed to be sweeping up wounded enemy units, but is it worth losing a point of Strength?

 

Now that said, the bike squad sergeant is going to be wearing a power fist (for dreadnought / monstrous creature / tank insurance), and if I take Khan, I'll be gaining a net of 1 attack at WS6 and improving the Strength and Initiative for his whole unit (7 normal bikers + a power fist + one attack bike), which translates to 20 attacks getting the +1 Strength boost. So I'm trying to decide whether or not Khan is worth fielding in place of my tried and true Relic Blade-wielding Hellfire-round shooting biker captain. Anyone have any suggestions?

[Koremu]

You can't Outflank with a Dreadnought, because Khan (unlike Vulkan) specifically requires units to exchange Combat Tactics for it.

 

One thing you didn't touch on: The combination of Furious Charge and a Power Fist (either on a Sgt. or a Command Squad Veteran) makes for a STR10 weapon on the assault. This is superb for making a mockery of that AV14 all round.

[Jackelope King]

I hadn't even realized that Dreadnoughts didn't get Combat Tactics, but since they don't have Leadership scores, I suppose that makes sense. Good catch.

[Koremu]

They would be way way nastier if you could bounce them out of combat for another round of fire and an assault.

[Gornall]

One thing you didn't touch on: The combination of Furious Charge and a Power Fist (either on a Sgt. or a Command Squad Veteran) makes for a STR10 weapon on the assault. This is superb for making a mockery of that AV14 all round.

 

Doesn't the +1 Strength modifier occur after the powerfist modifier? (Page 7 of the mini rulebook)

[Captain Malachi]

Koremu, S9 actually, you multiply then add (it's in the rulebook somewhere).

 

As for why you'd hit and run, it's so that you can bounce off in his turn, run off and assault another unit. If done right this gives you a threat range of about 24"-30"

[greatcrusade08]

Koremu, S9 actually, you multiply then add (it's in the rulebook somewhere).

 

As for why you'd hit and run, it's so that you can bounce off in his turn, run off and assault another unit. If done right this gives you a threat range of about 24"-30"

 

Also it means you will usually get another charge in to gain furious charge and +1A bonuses... you can assault ther same unit again aswell..

 

GC08

[Jackelope King]

Wait, you can hit and run in the enemy turn, essentially making hit and run into a super-charged version of Combat Tactics? That's pretty sweet. For some reason I thought you could only do this on the turn you charged. You learn something new every day.

[Koremu]

Koremu, S9 actually, you multiply then add (it's in the rulebook somewhere).

 

As for why you'd hit and run, it's so that you can bounce off in his turn, run off and assault another unit. If done right this gives you a threat range of about 24"-30"

It's still enough to ruin Mr.Monoliths day.

[Resv]

Here is some food for thought, just to toss this out there.

 

Outflank: This is unreliable to say the least. I remember getting really excited when I first put it into action. By the third game I had played with my "Counts As" Khan I decided it was NOT worth it. You have a 33% chance of coming in on the table edge you want, or in some cases need, to come in on. This can really ruin your game if it doesn't work out.

 

Furious Charge: Nothing bad to say about this just one thing to mention, be careful. This is an awesome ability and can really tear out the teeth of your opponent. Don't forget though that he/she can still chose their wounds so that power claw or agonizer or hidden fist might not go away as easily as you think.

 

Hit and Run: With ATSKNF and Combat Tactics you can accomplish much the same thing by choosing to fail your moral at the end of the assault, winning a leadership check (for sweeping advance), and then falling back and regrouping. I know this isn't the same thing as Hit and Run but it achieves a similar result.

 

A basic Captain gets a ton more in way of Kit and can really be outfitted to deal with what ever you happen to be facing. Khan first comes of as having lots of utility but from what I have seen that utility is a mixed bag.

[Jackelope King]

Here is some food for thought, just to toss this out there.

 

Outflank: This is unreliable to say the least. I remember getting really excited when I first put it into action. By the third game I had played with my "Counts As" Khan I decided it was NOT worth it. You have a 33% chance of coming in on the table edge you want, or in some cases need, to come in on. This can really ruin your game if it doesn't work out.

66%, actually. The result is either left, right, or your choice. And let's face it: when you've got a unit that can move 24" when it comes onto the board, and when I'm planning on deploying a nasty firebase to funnel the enemy towards the table edges, I should be okay.

 

Furious Charge: Nothing bad to say about this just one thing to mention, be careful. This is an awesome ability and can really tear out the teeth of your opponent. Don't forget though that he/she can still chose their wounds so that power claw or agonizer or hidden fist might not go away as easily as you think.

My regular opponent is a horde ork player. I know about surrounding the squad leader with 30 ablative wounds :D The heads-up is appreciated, though.

 

Hit and Run: With ATSKNF and Combat Tactics you can accomplish much the same thing by choosing to fail your moral at the end of the assault, winning a leadership check (for sweeping advance), and then falling back and regrouping. I know this isn't the same thing as Hit and Run but it achieves a similar result.

This is probably the biggest wash for me: Hit and Run (as I know understand it) can let you do some impressive leap-frogging and keep you out of the lane of fire and avoid being shot. Nice, but I agree that it takes some work to make it really worth it.

 

A basic Captain gets a ton more in way of Kit and can really be outfitted to deal with what ever you happen to be facing. Khan first comes of as having lots of utility but from what I have seen that utility is a mixed bag.

The feedback is greatly appreciated. I really love my Bike Captain: he's proven reliable and relatively killy with his hellfire rounds and relic blade. But his unit has always felt a little "meh" when they follow the captain in. Khan might not be the MVP that the Bike Captain will be, but his unit might get that title.

 

So far, it looks like a wash to me, and those 30 extra points that Khan costs might be a dealbreaker.

[Resv]

When it comes to Bike Captains I tend to go overboard. The 30 point difference you pointed out though can buy you a few goodies to toss at your opponent. Digital Weapons comes to mind as one of those kinda pricey things. Re-roll one failed S6 wound? Yes Please! To be honest I will only take a Captain if he is on a bike, even though Khan is pretty cool, his price just doesn't add up for me. If you have the points, and are still dead set on Khan, I would say that you should take an Honor Guard unit. Paired with Khan(A too Chaplin, but better with Khan) you can really make the best of Hit and Run and Furious Charge. Since Khan really is a CC character it makes sense that you want to back this up as much as possible with as much power as you can spare.

 

A note on Outflank: Warp Angel made a point about Outflank in a all bike or mostly bike army. With 12+6 move-shoot-assault or 24 turbo boost, should you chose to bring them out from a one of your Corners you can achieve a similar effect as out flank on three of the table sides. NOT the exact same, but similar. You don't get the BEHIND YA! effect of Outflank but you have more control in a way.

[chapter master 454]

Khan to me while nice is just not worth it, riding a bike he is the most expensive SC outside ultramarine characters and for what? 3+ save, no eternal warrior and some power sword with super rending (instant death on a 6). Thing to remember they did a cheeseburger with khan, his bike can run and he has fleet. Not to mention I tryed this with my army and they piecemealed onto the board and got shredded. Outflank I personally feel should ALWAYS be player choice, you don't exactly tell your men to flip a coin on which way to go now do you?

 

Personally I'd take the generic, you get more out of it. 2+ armour save (yes GW, artifcer armour is that common it's standard issue ever since the krak rockets birth) not to mention you have str 6, re-roll to hit 2+ wounding boltersplus you can still take a storm shield. Real shame how GW think a chapter master wouldn't wear artifcer armour (calgar and pedro should be ashamed of themselves)

[Marlow]

Khan is nice, but I think best saved for higher point games (2000+) and works well with a mounted command squad.

'Furious Charge' & 'Hit n run' are great to have.

 

Not a fan of outflanking, but then I do not think much of Combat Tactics either.

[chaplain_quint]

Hit and Run: With ATSKNF and Combat Tactics you can accomplish much the same thing by choosing to fail your moral at the end of the assault, winning a leadership check (for sweeping advance), and then falling back and regrouping. I know this isn't the same thing as Hit and Run but it achieves a similar result.

 

another big diference is that for combat tactics to work, you already had to take a test. if you do not have to take a test because you have won the combat than no getting away for you.

[Jack-hammer]

I've been playing with Khan and been having great success. The trick is that the whole army outflanks and I use Tigerius as my second HQ.

 

By using Tigerius I usually re-roll any units that do turn up on my second turn. Then in my third turn re-roll those that don't turn up.

 

This usually means that my whole force appear in my third turn and begins the carnage. With the speed of bikes and transports it does not matter where I turn up.

 

The opponent will either castle up on a objective or in a corner; in which case you can grab all the other objectives. Or they will spread out to hold as many objectives as they can; in which case you can destroy small portions of his army with your whole army.

 

I play eldar, ultramarines, ork mobs, grey knights, blood angels, salamanders. And the only one which regularly gives me trouble is the eldar, and that because of all his damned skimmers :ph34r:

 

I think Khan is awesome. Im looking forward to trying out at the next tourny.

[Mr Peon]

Khan is a captain so comes with command squad rather than honor squad. And yes hit and run means you can get out and have a shot as well before charging in and getting furious charge. It can be brutal, or a life saver if you get stuck with something too big to chew.

[Maijin]

Not to mention when you stick him in a command squad you have an Apothecary, so you have Outflank, Furious Charge, Hit and Run and Feel No Pain all together on a 5 Toughness, fast moving unit. Do not underestimate how nasty this one unit can be.

 

Once kitted out, it's easily capable of 4 S8, AP1 meltagun shots before the charge that delivers upwards of 16 S5 power weapon attacks. There is not much in the Warhammer universe that will stand up to that sort of killing power.

[Resv]

another big difference is that for combat tactics to work, you already had to take a test. if you do not have to take a test because you have won the combat than no getting away for you.

 

If this is the case then you can move on to the next combat. You can fail any moral tests if you want so if you don't outright win you can move on. Hit and Run is great for moving on to the next close combat or out of a bad situation. However! Should you roll into combat beat the snot out of the enemy squad (and with furious charge this is more likely than not) you probably defeated them and they ran or are routed while running (remember you have I5 whenever you assault). Should this be the case you are no longer locked in Close Combat at the end of the Assault Phase and can't make use of Hit and Run. Here is the major contradiction I have with Khan, to make the best of his Abilities you should take a buff CC unit, like a Command Squad; Furious Charge is the best part of Khan and this should not be put to waste with a lack luster CC unit. But! Hit and Run depends on not dealing enough wounds to an enemy or enemy squad to work.

 

Take it for what you will, I am not a big fan because I think over all Khan is too expensive to field no matter what the points. It is great that all of your Dedicated Transports get to outflank (ie; Rhinos and Razorbacks. It says nothing about Land Raiders or even bikes in there) and he can really bone up a Command Squad into a deadly CC monster but a standard Captain on a bike can have more utility and survivability (ie; Artificer Armor, Storm Shield) and hit harder (Relic Blade).

 

On a side note, I played a guy at my local club who had Khan on the table and tried to Outflank his entire army. I mean everything, Dreadnoughts, Predators, the whole of his forces. But he only had one Rhino in all of this. He was amazingly pissed when I pointed out Khan's rules and then I started with all of my Army in reserve and came flying out. This needs to be stated again, Khan's ability states that if you take him your Dedicated Transports can Outflank, that's it, nothing else.

[Koremu]

On a side note, I played a guy at my local club who had Khan on the table and tried to Outflank his entire army. I mean everything, Dreadnoughts, Predators, the whole of his forces. But he only had one Rhino in all of this. He was amazingly pissed when I pointed out Khan's rules and then I started with all of my Army in reserve and came flying out. This needs to be stated again, Khan's ability states that if you take him your Dedicated Transports can Outflank, that's it, nothing else.

 

This is not true.

 

As per Khan's rules, all units which would normally have Combat Tactics instead have the ability to outflank, and your dedicated Transports also gain outflank.

 

There's nothing stopping you from outflanking with Infantry or Bike Squads though.

[gainesdp]

This needs to be stated again, Khan's ability states that if you take him your Dedicated Transports can Outflank, that's it, nothing else.

 

That is not what it says.

 

It begins standard, all units exchange combat tactics for the ability to outflank.

 

It then states, dedicated transports ALSO gain the ability to outflank (Emphasis mine).

 

So, as I read it, anything that had combat tactics can outflank. Since dedicated transports do not have this rule, an additional modifier was added that allowed dedicated transports to outflank as well. I imagine this was because they did not want to give scout/infiltrate to the entire army, and it was easier to explicitly only allow outflanking via the above method.

[Jackelope King]

This needs to be stated again, Khan's ability states that if you take him your Dedicated Transports can Outflank, that's it, nothing else.

 

That is not what it says.

 

It begins standard, all units exchange combat tactics for the ability to outflank.

 

It then states, dedicated transports ALSO gain the ability to outflank (Emphasis mine).

 

So, as I read it, anything that had combat tactics can outflank. Since dedicated transports do not have this rule, an additional modifier was added that allowed dedicated transports to outflank as well. I imagine this was because they did not want to give scout/infiltrate to the entire army, and it was easier to explicitly only allow outflanking via the above method.

Now that I've read the actual rule... that seems exactly right. Normally, units with the Scouts USR grant it to their dedicated transport, enabling them to outflank in their dedicated transport. This is just a way of granting dedicated transports the same benefit without letting you get a free Scouts move at the start of the game.

[Jackelope King]

And thanks for the help sorting this out, everyone. With the list I'm currently setting up, I think I'm going to stick with a generic Bike Captain. However, now that I grasp Khan's abilities a little bit better, I'd like to try a list with him that include a good ol' Land Raider Crusader loaded up with Assault Terminators. Pricey as hell, but should do a nice job of striking terror into the hearts of my enemies.

[bt2278]

... I'd like to try a list with him that include a good ol' Land Raider Crusader loaded up with Assault Terminators...

 

you can also outflank them seperately :)

[Jackelope King]

... I'd like to try a list with him that include a good ol' Land Raider Crusader loaded up with Assault Terminators...

 

you can also outflank them seperately :)

Oh, I'm well aware. I'm planning on having Khan roll with a bike squad to support the Assault Terminators' charge. That's a little ways off, though... trying to get a little scout army together and work on my Tau a bit.