travh20 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 If I attach my Chaos Lord with wings to my 8 man 'zerker squad in Rhino, is that OK? I just want to do it first turn so he isnt out there on his own getting targeted first round of shooting since there will only be two rhinos on the field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hashshashin Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I beleive they can, I don't recall anywhere it says you can't Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Yes, that's why no one ever takes jump packs with wings as an option (that and they look cooler). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Technically, yes, but I have a feeling that it is a loophole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 @Legatus: Quite the opposite, I'm fairly sure it's the whole point. I mean, why would they make a distinction between wings and jump packs otherwise? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Well it says things with wings move as if jump infantry, not that it IS jump infantry. so yeah you can. However just be ready to pull your codex and show that to people. Also be aware that its akin to a codex marine HQ taking the space marine bike as wargear and going in a transport. (the bike wargear makes you fallow the rules for bikes, but it doesnt change your type from infantry to bike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 @Frosty: Different thing, the bikes entry says "follows all the rules for bikes", while the wings one just says "moves like", therefore you can't get on a bike and get in a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Nope, that's entirely different. The rules for bikes say that a bike cant be put in a transport. so, following the rules for bikes, a bike captain can't enter a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 The only direct changes of "Jump Infantry" over regular "Infantry", i.e. what's explained in their rules description on page 52, are in how they move. So if a rule explains that a model "moves like Jump Infantry" then that pretty much means the model is Jump Infantry. If there wasn't a tiny additional sentence that mentioned "Jump Infantry" later on page 66 in the transport rules. But that is easily overlooked. That's why I suggested that it is probably a loophole. It is very easy to just write "moves like Jump Infantry" if the intention was to have it count as Jump Infantry in all respects (since that usually only means movement). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Then I ask again, why make a distinction between wings and jump packs? And remember it was written for fourth, so the rules for jump infantry not being allowed in transports may have been a little more obvious (I can't remember to be honest). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 There was no strict distinction in 3rd and it's codices, so the description of jump infantry in the 4th Edition rulebook is very broad and includes all sorts of devices that make models move in a different way than regular infantry. And on the back of the 4th edition rulebook there was a list of all the units of the current codices and as what kind of unit type they count. Chaos models (from 3.5 Codex) with "demonic flight" were listed as jump infantry. Vehicles could only transport infantry models. Then I ask again, why make a distinction between wings and jump packs? "Wings", because the 3.5 codex had established that chaos lords/daemon princes often had them instead of jump packs, and chaos does not really have that much access to jump packs traditionally. In 2nd Edition they did not have any jump packs at all, and only got the new "raptor" unit with 3rd Edition. And I am sure that "move like jump infantry" can appear to be sufficient for some authors, since it is easily overlooked that that is not the only thing that matters for jump infantry. I checked the Chaos FaQ and in there the answer is that a Chaos Marine Character with wings can indeed be transported in a vehicle. I guess that is a "RAW" FaQ answer. Sometimes the answers go by RAW, sometimes they clarify. Going by RAW in this case is not necessarily a bad thing I guess. I am still not sure that it isn't an unintentional loophole though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemoHac Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I'd say legal. Be prepared for people to question it though. Main question I'd have is why take Wings on a character that will be riding in a transport or joining a non-jump infantry unit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Humongous Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Defiantley legal, given that the newest chaos FAQ specifically mentions it as such. Why do it? Because having him aproach the enemy solo is a good way to get shot. He doesn't have to STAY with the unit; once the unit moves up a bit, he can leave it and assult on his own, but in the meantime he's a) inside a transport and b) unable to be picked out as an unit for shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Perfectly legal, and it is definitely an intentional difference between wings and a jump pack. Go nuts! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
travh20 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Main question I'd have is why take Wings on a character that will be riding in a transport or joining a non-jump infantry unit? Mainly because all the rest of my units are in Rhinos or infiltrating or deep striking, so I dont want one model out there all by his lonsome at the beginning of the game taking all the fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 GW's "unofficial" take on the matter... Here Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1914952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 that answer was official, once. but it's good backing evidence - the nays have it: winged != jump infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1915022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 the nays have it: winged != jump infantry. Ahhh SQL on my favourite board, I was worried that I was starting to see syntax everywhere then, scared the life outta me. Definitely a dirty Chaos trick that you can explain your way out of I think. I would say that given the explanation I dont think many would outwardly disapprove but you will probably get a number of mutterings and an eye brow raised or two each time you do this. Mind you this is probably why there is a distinctive difference between wings and jump pack other than to allow you to model wings and not have to "counts as" jump pack (which some people might moan about if they are that way inclined). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1915051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Nope, that's entirely different. The rules for bikes say that a bike cant be put in a transport. so, following the rules for bikes, a bike captain can't enter a transport. @Frosty: Different thing, the bikes entry says "follows all the rules for bikes", while the wings one just says "moves like", therefore you can't get on a bike and get in a transport. Actualy the rules for transports dont let you take bikes, the rules for bikes mention nothing about transports, so the fact that having the space marine bike wargear does not change a model from infantry to bike, simply lets the fallow the rules of bikes, means that any unit that can take the bike as wargear can take said bike and still get in a transport. I wouldnt do it because its a dick move, but it is legal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1915727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I haven't got my rulebook to check, but if a captain on a bike, who follows the rules for bikes, can get in a transport so can a normal bike squad. So somehow I doubt it. Since I can see the counter-argument, I'll counter it now: If a captain follows the rules for bikes, then for ALL intents and purposes (including getting in transports) his unit type is "bike", just like a bike squad. So unless bikers have a rule of their own saying they can't get in transports (which they don't) then the captain can't get in a transport if on a bike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1915750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 agreed - note the similarities of wings allowing a model to "move as" jump infantry and things such as scarab swarms or wraiths which "move as" bikes. they are not bike - they simply uses those movement rules as they are already printed and there is no need to repeat them when they can simply be referenced. same with wings. but to HAVE A BIKE is to BE a bike mounted unit - period, with all of the inherent advantages and disadvantages of same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1915756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 The point is having a bike and being a bike ARE different as defined by the BRB and the space marine codex. The only difference between jump infantry and regular infantry ARE the movement rule. Saying an infantry unit moves as if jump infantry is identical to saying it follows the rules of jump infantry. The reason (I suspect) wings has different wording than a jump pack IS for the deamon prince, to avoid issues of jump infantry rules superceding monstrous creature rules. The only reason a lord with wings is not jump infantry are because it doesnt say so (after all it does fallow all the rules of jump infantry), which is the same reason taking a space marine bike doesnt make your unit type "bike." If the wrote it right, the rules for the space marine bike would say units that take ones unit type becomes bike, like they did with the jump pack makeing the unit jump infantry, they didnt do that and this is the loophole it makes. And it is exactly like the case with the wings, the bike is just a little more flagrant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1915966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I would have to agree that the distinction is to allow lord's to ride in transport's. If, as Frost the pyro says, this is to help make differences between a prince being a MC jump infantry model, then i feel the codex would simpily state that lord's/sorcerers could only upgrade with jump packs. Its all a mute point to me, as i would much rather use a prince then a lord or sorc (I have a dislike of high point models that can suffer Instant death, hidden powerfists suck!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1916003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If, as Frost the pyro says, this is to help make differences between a prince being a MC jump infantry model, then i feel the codex would simpily state that lord's/sorcerers could only upgrade with jump packs. Modeling varity is why (I would think) lords and sorcerers are allowed wings. after all if they were planned as being different they would have different point costs. As is its akin to leting tac squads replace bolters with storm bolters for free, one has all the power of the previous, and a bonus. Wings give everything jump packs give, but doesnt change you from infantry to jump infantry, thus leting you ride in transports. What it comes down to is the fact that GW is a modeling company, not a rules making company. If they were profesional rule writers wings would have a provision for this whole discusion and a bike would change a units type to bike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162855-can-a-lord-with-wings-ride-inside-a-rhino-with-a-unit-he-is/#findComment-1916037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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