Redeemer Tactics

[lucifer light bearer]

okay I think I've settled on a Land raider Redeemer. So I want to open up this thread to the tactics of using space marines new tank. how do you get the best results out of your redeemer?

[chapter master 454]

pick a point on the board, put some terminators in the redeemer and drive right up to that point and unload those terminators and start flaming. Sorry but it's that simple IMO. You could try adding khan to mix if you want (then it's a matter of where you want the terminators!)

[lucifer light bearer]

I would say it's more complicated then that. just as an example I play against a lot of chaos marine players, and just about all of them put two melta guns in each marine squad. in order to be effective the redeemer has to be very close, that also puts it in real danger from the meltas, not to mention chain fists, monsterus creatures, and dreadnoughts.

[Lord Sinaris]

If there are Meltas involved, obviously you want to kill the ones near to you before they kill you. The Redeemer is the one thing in the Space Marines Arsenal that is perfectly fitted to do that. If, after your movement, the Terminators assault and 1 or 2 shots from your flamers there is ANY melta left within the 12'-range (before movement!) that they need to be a real threat to you, then you might have just done something wrong, or your enemy was very accurate at positioning.

 

Of course, other heavy threats to you, like Multi-Meltas and others, still need to be taken care of by other means. The Redeemer is a close-combat-assault-supporting-all-killing-vehicle, which is pretty much why I personally dislike it. This, and also the issue that I see with efficently using two flamer-templates on two sides of a ridiculously large vehicle...

[Puddle]

I would have rathered a 12/14" Template (a new design of course) with S5, AP4. It would do a lot better IMO.

 

I'm not complaining - i love the LRR as is, but that would have been better.

 

As is - its a threat vehicle - Not designed for actual damage output per game, but the threat factor. Where ever that thing is, there'll be a large open space all around it - whether there were models there to start with, or not! ^_^

[tedwin183]

I completely agree on the confusion of having two flame template weapons on the sides of a large vehicle...

 

Just doesn't seem worth it to me at all.

[greatcrusade08]

but they do wound MEQ on 2+ and disallow armour saves, whats better than that, move 12" and flame them before they can use thier meltas thats all... i add extra armour on mine.

 

GC08

[Scott-S6]

I said the same till I had one used against me. Two flamestore templates is 4-6 dead MEQs. Then the squad piles out and kills the rest.

 

There aren't many things that can wipe out a squad of marines per turn.

 

Of course, the problem with the redeemer is that it's overkill against anything else. 4-6 dead gaunts or guardsmen is not a good return from a 270p vehicle.

[greatcrusade08]

like all land raiders it is first and foremost an assault vehicle with AV14, thats worth the cost on its own, then look at the armament options, between LRC and LRR the redeemer is better vs MEQ, and im not sure where people are getting their figures from but its possible to flame 2 units at once, getting 5 or 6 marines from each..

 

GC08

[Lord Sinaris]

I said the same till I had one used against me. Two flamestore templates is 4-6 dead MEQs. Then the squad piles out and kills the rest.

 

There aren't many things that can wipe out a squad of marines per turn.

 

Of course, the problem with the redeemer is that it's overkill against anything else. 4-6 dead gaunts or guardsmen is not a good return from a 270p vehicle.

 

Trouble being here that you just did use a combination of units worth a 500+ points. For 500 points, it IS a really nifty tool, agreed, but heck, for 500 points you could get a lot of other killing-stuff, too. I can pour out two Squads of Sternguard for that price, including lighter transport, which kills most MEQs just as well, and does lots better against light targets, plus they can be equipped to be more dangerous against tanks. I assure you they could wipe out a squad of Marines per turn any day.

 

Its obviously personal preference, but the Redeemer doesn't really seem to fulfill the LRs role for me. The LR is a tank that can transport something very safely, hence it will be something pretty powerful, and also support that unit very well. Storm Termis, to be exact, 80% of the time. Now, if ANYTHING is within range of its flamers, it will most likely also be in range of the assault. Hence, you are really pouring out close-range overkill (and I can imagine very fatal decissions where you kill stuff with the Redeemer and leave your assault squad just short of assault range since the enemy lost the nearest units). The Termis wouldn't need the Redeemer to kill of a Squad, they will do just fine by themselves. The Redeemer is a transport to them, nothing more.

The other LR-schemes have things to help the squad inside. The Crusader shines because it can really thin out Hordes very nicely (better than the Redeemer against a clever opponent, if you ask me), and big units are something that Termis aren't particularly good at. The standart scheme, which is still my favourite, can destroy any tank-mounted templates (hate those Fire Prisms, srsly!) and in general ANYTHING that can hurt the tank. The other two might be helpless against such targets, be pounded by them and eventually be destroyed, leaving your unit stranded and/or dead. The standart LR is, IMO, the toughest unit in the whole Space Marine list, because it can shoot back at anything with equal or superiour power.

 

Oh, and greatcrusade08: About getting only 4-5 hits with the Redeemer: I don't see how you could get more. I'm unsure and speculating of course. But really, nothing yells out "spread your troops out, moron!" like a few hundred tons of Adamantium with two nasty templates rolling your way. A flamer template, as much as I look at it, seems really awfully small to me, having only about 8'' of range.

And really, your enemy will not be able to NOT spot that great chunk of a Tank rolling at him. He will be careful to place his troops out of range of that weapon, or at least spread out so that you can only ever attack one of them - leaving us with the overkill described above, and the counter-assault dreaded silently.

A Crusader does a better job against non-MEQs IMO because it just isn't dependant on your enemies positioning, but just really puts some heavy fire into him no matter how he tries to hide.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

On the other hand the redeemer doesnt neccessarily need to be chasing things on its own, it could be used to force and enemy between a rock and a hard place, using hammer and anvil tactics.

 

Besides, if your enemy is running away from a land raider it means that its also doing its job, providing psychological warfare and a real threat.

 

Its a good way of opening up objectives, or preventing the enemy from holding them, after all if you have a tough unit sitting inside one, then hopefully you can burn anything thats still around then have whatevers waiting inside rush out and polish off the rest.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Quick comment on the point of aiming two flamer sponsons at oposite ends of a huge tank. The answer is POTMS, shoot the AC and one flame at one target, and POTMS the other template at a second target.

[greatcrusade08]

Oh, and greatcrusade08: About getting only 4-5 hits with the Redeemer: I don't see how you could get more. I'm unsure and speculating of course. But really, nothing yells out "spread your troops out, moron!" like a few hundred tons of Adamantium with two nasty templates rolling your way. A flamer template, as much as I look at it, seems really awfully small to me, having only about 8'' of range.

 

You could always tank shock the enemy units, causing them to bunch up before you burn them.

 

GC08

[lucifer light bearer]

As I was building mine I was using my flame template to check if you could hit a unit in front of the tank with both flamestorms. If you mount them to the front of the tank the angle only leave about an inch in the middle not touched. I also think greatcrusade08 has a point saying tank shock might be your friend here.

[Lord Sinaris]

My worries were more about positioning of the enemy. Of course, you can really dish out hurting once you're in the middle of a unit. But really, most enemies with half a brain cell left wouldn't leave one, let alone two units of interessting targets standing arround in tank-shock and shooting-range of your Redeemer, or would they?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Depends on what you do i suppose, you might force them into it or use it as a deterrant (bit of a waste)

 

But even the best player may have to come up against one whether they want to or not, its all situational. But if your enemy is running away it means that they arent neccessarily being that useful, after all you can use the redeemer to mop up threats and defend objectives or your other units if you so chose.

 

I mean say you have a squad headed to an objective, but theres already an enemy squad on it? You send your old redeemer over and burn all the heretics and mop up with whatevers inside the redeemer.

 

If an enemy unit is causing problems, hunt it down with the redeemer, or make sure that if they're headed away from it, youve got something else ready to smack it as it runs.

[foster]

I'm going to get a Land Raider soon and I was wondering which one would be best at taking out Orks. The Redeemer stands out since Orks are so heavily numbered I can easily put lots of them under a template if my opponant brings large groups of Orks, plus no units gets to take cover saves. On the other hand The Crusador with their hurricane bolters have better range (can fire at other units other then the one the transported unit plans to charge) and still negates most of their armour saves. Since my opponant likes to mec his Orks IMO I prefer the Crusador since he will relatively have smaller mobs (15-20) which will mostly be scattered across the board (no prime target groups the the Redeemer would crave). However the Redeemer will negate Nob bikers annoying cover saves. Sadly I don't think I'll be able to get them in range but that could be a good thing, could act as a deterrent to keep the Nobs bikers away from my vunerable troops.

 

That's as far as I got and I still can't decide which one to use. If anyone can add to this pls do.

[Ryzouken]

Crusader is usually a better choice against orks. Most Ork players will spread their lines if they see a Redeemer, so you won't likely get much more than 4 per template. Crusader can move and fire everything, with potentially 12 bolter shots and 4 assault cannon shots whereas if the redeemer moves, it loses the use of either a template or an assault cannon.

 

Also, the Crusader can carry more models, which matters if you're playing Black Templars, Space Wolves (For Russ!), or a squad of terminators.

 

I wish I'd built my Redeemer into a Crusader. Stupid shinies...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Is there really such a big difference between the crusader and redeemer? After all the crusader has more space and as you claim can outdo the redeemer in anti hoarde capability, so whats the point in taking a smaller, less effective tank? Its 10 points less, but lets face it that isnt a lot.

 

So is the gap really that large?

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Oh, and greatcrusade08: About getting only 4-5 hits with the Redeemer: I don't see how you could get more. I'm unsure and speculating of course. But really, nothing yells out "spread your troops out, moron!" like a few hundred tons of Adamantium with two nasty templates rolling your way. A flamer template, as much as I look at it, seems really awfully small to me, having only about 8'' of range.

And really, your enemy will not be able to NOT spot that great chunk of a Tank rolling at him. He will be careful to place his troops out of range of that weapon, or at least spread out so that you can only ever attack one of them - leaving us with the overkill described above, and the counter-assault dreaded silently.

A Crusader does a better job against non-MEQs IMO because it just isn't dependant on your enemies positioning, but just really puts some heavy fire into him no matter how he tries to hide.

 

The answer to people spreading their troops out is simple:

 

Tank Shock.

 

Against low-Ld enemies, you can scare them away. Great! Now they can't do anything. Against high-Ld or Fearless enemies, like Orks, even better. Now all the enemies are bunched up on one side, and because of the way in which vehicle templates work, you can now flame the whole squad.

[Ryzouken]

I only worry about death or glory actions. Tankbusta bombs and their ilk can really hurt.

 

and fleeing models can still shoot, and if they run far enough can regroup if conditions are met.

 

Still a valid tactic, if the enemy is within 12 inches and you aren't stunned/immobilized/dead.

 

On that note, an immobilized Redeemer sucks a great deal more than an immobilized Crusader. At least the Crusader can contribute scary amounts of fire at 12 inches, the Redeemer just gets stuck with its Assault Cannon.

 

Till that gets blown off too... (happened last game)

[Koremu]

Where the Redeemer shines is in scenarios where the enemy are emplaced in defensive positions. The Redemer is your weapon of choice, able to burn troops out of buildings. The Crusader simply isn't capable of doing that.

[Scott-S6]

Crusader is a better choice against every thing except MEQs.

 

Here's some numbers (assuming 6" move, no stormbolter and no multi-melta, 3.5 hits per flamer.)

 

Redemer (flamer+AC) AV3=3.9 AV4=5.9 AV5=5.9 T3AV5=5.9

Redemer (2xflamer) AV3=5.8 AV4= 5.8 AV5=5.8 T3AV5=5.8

Crusdaer (2xHB+AC) AV3=2.8 AV4=5.6 AV5=8.3 T3AV5=10.1

 

The MM is also an advantage to the Crusader. The redemeer can't use it withou reducing it's other fire. The crusader can use it, against another target if it wants).

[foster]

I guess I'll use the Crusador for now, and build it up so I can swap the hurricane boltguns for Redeemer flamers when up against heavily armoured opponants.

[Brother Tual]

redeemer vs Crusader -

 

100% personal choice and if you need 10 points to spend elsewhere or the larger transport room..

 

Niether is better overall than the other -

 

What both the redeemer and the crusader do is deliver troops into the enemy lines - They have AV 14 so can do so rather reliably...

 

Arguing that a crusader is more survivable than a redeemer is really quite pointless - being 12 inches from your enemy of 6 inches is really the same thing... both tanks look to close with the enemy - both will be exposed to melta type weapons and close combat attacks - but generally, if this happens, the transport has done its job as your combat unit is ALSO in range of your enemy...

 

What a redeemer can do is clear an area FASTER than a crusader - Tank shock is golden - drive in the unit and burn - you would be surprised at how many models fit under a flamer template - My average is 7 models per template -

 

Most enemy units sit in cover at some point in the game - cover saves are a royal pain in the arse when you are scoring rending hits and using good ap weapons - the flamestorms obviously help out here but something to remember is that said units are usually BUNCHED up in terrain in order to fit within the feature - at this point, the redeemer will outclass the crusader immensly.. great for scoring unit removal as most objectives sit in a terrain piece..

 

People worry about comabt and thier tanks - A tank moving at 12' needs 6+ to hit reguardless of the enemy WS. Most things that can actually break a landraider in combat suffer from limited attacks and an un-availability to gain re-rolls to hit (feeder tendrils excepted) - if any hits are scored, they still need to roll the dice to penetrate, and then need a 5+ to kill it - look at it in the form of a normal combat - I have a model that you need a 6 to hit.. you then need to 'wound' my model, I consider it close to having a toughness of 10 - and then I effectively have a reverse 3+ invul save in the form of a 5 or a 6 to kill... (same odds as a 1 or 2 to fail a save..) otherwise my tank lives and is still firing... Get a redeemer and drive it into the body of your enemy and watch him struggle to contain it - thats what it does best - then, the killer blow is that the threat was not the redeemer at all, but the uber unit that is more than able to break anything.. If the LRR is still kicking, you effectively have two monsters that cant be stopped destroying swathes of models per turn.. That kind of attrition is not sustainable in a standard game..

 

I used to play the godhammer version exclusively - I did not like the crusader. That was in 4th ed when getting that close to the enemy was death as everything kicked the crap out of marines in combat.. now with the new rules and toys to play with, marines are alot stronger in combat given the right toys.. I still use the godhammer version but my LRR is my first choice in tournaments... I just dont find the crusader AS explosive as the redeemer, but then I drive my tanks over things as much as I can.. I WANT my LRR in combat.. it means that something big and strong is not hitting on my uber unit which is killing something else and probably couldnt handle ALL the nasties in one turn...