Is Chaoszilla Viable?

[minigun762]

I did some quick searching and came up with nothing that actually discusses this directly. At the start of the codex there was alot of talk about it but I haven't seen the idea actually pan out the way we assumed it would.

 

So my question is this, is a Chaoszilla list (defined as a combination of Defilers, Dreadnoughts and Daemon Princes) a viable army?

By viable I'm not saying 100% competitive but I am saying a list you could bring to a tournament and not expect to get laughed at as you place dead last.

[styx]

Yes, they have some viable options. The nasty one your missing is Generic Greater Demons. They don't count to force org so you can squeeze in several of them, a few demon princes, some basic CMS squads and still have room of defilers or dreadnoughts. 5th is huge about close combat so if they are played right, you could inflict some hurt on other armies.

 

The fun one that I have seen (this is rough draft) in my head it is right around 1850, may have to adjust to taste.

 

3 Generic Greater Demons

2 Demon Princes, MOS and Lash

3 Land Raiders with Dam. Possession

3 CSM squads with Mark of Glory with 2 of some assult weapon (plasma, melta or flamer) with a cheap champ with no upgrades or 3 squads of Deathguard with 2 assult weapons with a cheap champ.

 

You can slide this back and forth as you like and add wings, reduce something, etc...but you get the idea.

 

The concept is simple, squads ride in the tanks until they are reading to jump on a scoring objective or take on something. They pop out the Greater Demon when they come out of reserve.

[chillin]

I can't speak from experience but I think it would be one of those armies that did very well in some games and not well at all in others.

Just like nidzilla. You're basicly betting the game on that your opponent can't kill/neutralize 5 or 6 big powerful models.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

Where've you been, Chill?

 

:resists "chilling" joke ^_^

[minigun762]

Just like nidzilla. You're basicly betting the game on that your opponent can't kill/neutralize 5 or 6 big powerful models.

 

Yep pretty much. Compared to Nid or Daemonzilla, you'll have superior long range firepower, out to 72" in the case of the Defilers as well as virtual immunity to small arms fire. The drawback is you are trading wounds for an AV score and therefore are more likely to be taken out with one lucky shot.

 

However you do get a fair amount of of S10 attacks, as both Chaos Dreads and Defilers have more base attacks then a Loyalist equivalent plus you're backed up by fast moving Daemon Princes.

 

To Styx: I'm pretty sure that even though the Greater Daemon isn't officially part of the FOC, I believe it still has a 0-1 limitation, so at best you're getting one. It is a decent attacker though, the delivery system is the biggest issue for me.

[Cornelias]

trouble with greater daemons is no wings, with no wings i don't see any advantage over 8x LSD, if it had a wings option i'm sure we'd see alot more of them in lists.

[chillin]

Where've you been, Chill?

-

Business, girlfriend, her kids, ya' know......stuff.

just haven't been doing much 40k stuff lately, starting up again alittle though, might even break out a paint brush today :D

[Askari]

You can only have 1 greater daemon.

[the jeske]

the trouble with GD is that you need to buy 2 asp champions to use them and probablly two rhinos too and chaozilla doesnt have pts for that , unless you play 2250 games [and its unplayable there just like all zylla lists] or you switch better options [extra defiler] for weakers stuff , because of lack of enough models.

 

I did play test the list a lot , because its different from what you really get with our dex . The whole army is build around one principle "I use lots of Walkers/MC and your army at X pts doesnt have enough fire power to stop it and hth is out of the question" . Its played like a chaos demons list only with {generally] fewer troops , but better shoting. It has it random factors in the form of dreads and psychic powers and thats all. I personally dont like it , because while it has some really ha superior match ups [most sm stuff , orks ] tis not well rounded up and against eldar it offten just goes plop [lack of lash makes it harder to pull of that en mass charge on turn 2]. not an army for a new player too , because it is rather short on troops and doesnt have auto pilot mode.

[chillin]

I personally dont like it , because while it has some really ha superior match ups [most sm stuff , orks ] tis not well rounded up and against eldar

-

My DE used to crrrr-rush nidzilla.

Nid hoard used to usually beat me.

[minigun762]

I did play test the list a lot , because its different from what you really get with our dex . The whole army is build around one principle "I use lots of Walkers/MC and your army at X pts doesnt have enough fire power to stop it and hth is out of the question" . Its played like a chaos demons list only with {generally] fewer troops , but better shoting. not an army for a new player too , because it is rather short on troops and doesnt have auto pilot mode.

 

One of the key things that I'm running into is how to build the Dreadnoughts.

 

The Defilers are easy because any of their setups work, but with so many other walkers I think that the BattleCannon/2DCCW is probably the best.

 

The Daemon Princes will be decked out as much as they can be, but with so few points I forsee alot of naked winged DP's, maybe just marked.

 

Due to the funky nature of Dreadnoughts, the "safest" choice would probably be the 2 DCCWs but that really puts a limit on one of the main advantages that Chaoszilla has over Nid/Daemonzilla and thats effective long range shooting. Looking at all the choices I'm thinking that the Plasma Cannon might be the perfect options as its a threat to most targets downrange while not being horribly scary to your own walkers (1 S7 blast isn't that bad). Its also on the cheap end of weapons.

Other options would be the Missile Launcher (to fire Frags at your own walkers/Rhinos)

TL Heavy Bolter (can't hurt other walkers)

 

There is also the Multi-Melta, but thats kinda scary with so much armor. Same goes for the TL AutoCannon and LasCannons as they're all weapons that are geared to take out medium-heavy armor.

[styx]

Yea, forgot the 0-1 for Greater Demons...didn't have my codex with me when I was posting at work. Going off the ole' memory...the problem of getting old. :tu:

[the jeske]

IMO the hth dreads were better , they just arent stable enough to be shooty + extra hth units support the whole army theame [2 dps , defilers] . a shoty zilla army like the nids one is impossible to do , because dreads and defilers are a sub par to the 4th dakka fex and flyerants [+ chaos doesnt have genestealers with old rending as support].

[Brother Blackbone]

I don't see that this has been mentioned. I think the list is actually more like:

 

2 Daemon Princes - wings, MoS, lash

 

3 Dreads

 

3 Defilers

 

1 Greater Daemon

 

total: around 1200 pts

 

Whatever points remain (depending on your point level), you spend on whatever helps you with taking/holding objectives and summoning the Greater Daemon if you want to use him.

 

With the Run rule, the list has decent viability. More of a theme list than anything I guess, using all those Heavy slots on armor 12 walkers seems kinda iffy. I haven't seen any variations that use different loadouts for the Daemon Princes, but you might be better off using one with MoN and Warptime instead of MoS and Lash.

 

 

- Blackbone

[minigun762]

IMO the hth dreads were better , they just arent stable enough to be shooty + extra hth units support the whole army theame [2 dps , defilers] . a shoty zilla army like the nids one is impossible to do , because dreads and defilers are a sub par to the 4th dakka fex and flyerants [+ chaos doesnt have genestealers with old rending as support].

 

You don't think its more useful to have some kind of ranged weapon at the cost of +1 attack?

Chaos Dreads already come with 3 attacks naturally, so you're ahead of the game compared to Loyalist Dreadnoughts.

 

A cheap ranged weapon seems like a useful idea to take out those fast moving targets that are able to duck away from a walker's 6" of movement.

[the jeske]

You don't think its more useful to have some kind of ranged weapon at the cost of +1 attack?

nope I would rather force my opponent to move counter units to intercept 2dps 3defilers and dreads all runing , the hope that one or two shots from the can actually influence the battle on a stable basis [whats kind of a hard to do considering they are very random]. to me the guns are extra [and str7 plasma or auto canons can hurt defilers or dps . two bolters cant ] pts put in to something that doesnt work well in the very begining . I would rather not buy weapons for them and have bigger scoring units[a problems for teh chaozilla build] or a termicide squad.

[Mutt-Man!]

I run Chaos Zilla. When the codex ran into the heat of its release date and eve prior when its leaked information was belched out of the rear end of the papa himself - I have ran Chaos-Zilla.

 

3 Defilers (never fails), 3 Melee Dreadnoughts or With missile Launchers (frags bounces off armor), 2 Daemon Princes preferably a defensive marked one or two, and the troops bolstered with champions ready to die for a greater daemon.

 

VS Nidzilla (the big question)

In 5th Edition:

 

Vehicles are harder to take out, and doubly so against venom cannons so that Str8 and under weapons (aside from the 1 or 2 warp blasts in nidzillas) for the most part firepower is equal except we got 3 battle cannons and 6 "dreadnoughts". They have no initiative 3 or 4 monstrous creatures, so initiative doesnt matter, you either go ahead or behind. Your stuff does the same against most except for carnifexes, and even then you strike ahead of them most of the time. (Odd tyranid rules, like catalyst, smoke backs and etc). They can pack harder hitting melee, but ours is more durable against firepower while maintaining good fire for its worth. Our troops if catching them in pinch formations, can actually win out because of the versitility of BP+CCW and Bolter. Use terrain, let them come to you, and give him hell. Kill his genestealers!

 

Apart from all that, 5th edition nidzilla is toned down a bit, while chaoszilla is upped. I have not lost with my C-zilla versus them, while N-zilla maintains a close battle most of those games.

 

Viable for other games? Two words, fleet and run.

[the jeske]

nidzilla or even nids in all they versions are not playable right now [at least not at tournament lvl] . whats there to talk about . Fexs arent scoring anymore and games are most of the time played at 1750 or more pts , where the games dominated by 4th nids were played at 1500 pts or less .

 

also with cover easier to get for nids [its easier to models nids to get more cover , something impossible to do with defilers and DP and really hard to do right with metal dreads] and wounds and not AV12 I think that its actually the nids MC that are more resisten .

But chaoszilla has its upper in four things . Better troops [genestealers cost to much and rending got nerfed and flamer is the weapon of choice for many armies, +3 armor save duh] lash and generally psychic powers , two flying HQs where nids can only have one [see the old beardy H-man era designers found 2 flying tyrants too "broken" the fuff heads from JJ saw nothing wrong with 2 flying DPs with lash] .

[Smurfalypse]

Been more than a few months since ive played but i had posted a chaos list here a long while back with x3 dreads, x3 defilers, x2 troops in rhinos, x2 daemon princes, and i kinda got laughed at alot....Chillen made a remark about me not having possessed. Anyhow i had played that list a good amount and it actually did "ok" by ok i mean i won about half my games, though i always got laughs and laughed myself...That type of army seems to bring out "cinimatic moments", there just always seemed to be this one point and time every game where you won or lost and you could see it immediately. Was alot of fun to play and the list was 1500 pts so the argument that you cant fit it is way off....Though two troops made objective hunting rough :)

[minigun762]

Making an army for fun is its own justification in my book.

You have to be enjoying the game, otherwise why are you wasting so much money on it?

 

I'm toying with a partial Chaoszilla list right now, basically a few less Walkers/MCs and using those points for more Troops instead. I'll probably post something up in the near future.

[styx]

nidzilla or even nids in all they versions are not playable right now [at least not at tournament lvl] . whats there to talk about . Fexs arent scoring anymore and games are most of the time played at 1750 or more pts , where the games dominated by 4th nids were played at 1500 pts or less .

 

also with cover easier to get for nids [its easier to models nids to get more cover , something impossible to do with defilers and DP and really hard to do right with metal dreads] and wounds and not AV12 I think that its actually the nids MC that are more resisten .

But chaoszilla has its upper in four things . Better troops [genestealers cost to much and rending got nerfed and flamer is the weapon of choice for many armies, +3 armor save duh] lash and generally psychic powers , two flying HQs where nids can only have one [see the old beardy H-man era designers found 2 flying tyrants too "broken" the fuff heads from JJ saw nothing wrong with 2 flying DPs with lash] .

 

 

Have to disagree about Nidzilla or Nids in general, a guy this past weekend was two wins and only one loss.

[Hellios]

Have to disagree about Nidzilla or Nids in general, a guy this past weekend was two wins and only one loss.

 

Quoted for truth, although you do get less nidzilla forces because they are no longer scoring.

[the jeske]

Have to disagree about Nidzilla or Nids in general, a guy this past weekend was two wins and only one loss

ok I also belive that thanks to superior skills , I could do well [or at least not bad] with some luck with match ups [and going strickt RAW] in local tournaments . But anyone with a good build can win local tournaments . But If you check GT results from last 6months [or better yet since the lash started to be a prominent part of the tournament sceen] you dont see many nids or nidzilla lists in top 16 .

[Zhukov]

Equally skilled players with normal dice rolles = Nid player loses. At least thats how I look at it.

[minigun762]

Equally skilled players with normal dice rolles = Nid player loses. At least thats how I look at it.

 

What is it that really changed though? Was it only the "troops = scoring" that screwed them over?

 

I guess I don't see why a slight variation of the list wouldn't be still very powerful. Drop 1-2 MCs for more troops or bigger broods. Something of that sort.