Apogee Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I recently played a game vs a Necron opponent. I won't get into the game in detail, btu suffice to say that he was necrons with a Monolith, and I was running foot-slogging sisters. At once point, his monolith decided it would do it's big pie-plate of death on a sister squad. This particular squad was lined up behind a barricade, giving them excellent cover from anyone on foot or a tank. He said that the pie plate LOS originates from the top of the Monolith (the big green crystal) and therefore I got no cover save. The shot scattered and only killed a couple girls, so I didn't argue the point, but what do you guys think? The weapon doesn't really have an obvious origin like the flux arcs on the corners, so it's hard to tell... Also, are there any rules regarding game point value minimums for the C'tan models? Seems odd that a 'cron play can take a Nightbringer at 1500 and I can't take St. Celestine (1700 minimum):P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 It would seem to me that when you get a "model's eye view" from the crystal, the players is attempting to see the target from the vantage point of the weapon. Once the model blocks the player's true vision then it becomes guess work. So peole tend to move around the model to make sure they get "the picture" in their mind's eye. At the same time, players also tend to look for the greatest advantage. If he could see the squad from the top of the crystal before his vision was blocked, then the rules take effect: was more than 50% blocked by terrain. If not = no cover. If yes = cover. Also, there is nothing wrong with challenging your opponent's opinion. What he/she sees is relative to them, until you see what they see. In other words, ask to see for yourself. If the player takes any offense then ask for a third party. If that fails then it's a dice roll - and that is in the rules as well. Where the crystal fires from is not a matter for discussion (in my opinion) because it is up to the players to determine the origin of the shot. For my part, I believe in imperical evidence. What I SEE is what I believe (talking about the game here). If I stop seeing the models from the PoV of the weapon (because IT is blockingmy PoV) then I cannot prove that my guess-work is accurate for anyone else. Thus, the point of origin of the shot is the top of the crystal, even though I can easily imagine that it comes from the center as this makes the most science-fiction-sense. I can't possibly try to touch the second part of your querry. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 If you're behind a barricade and he was on the other side of it then you had cover. Even ignoring that part of the rules, could he see all of the models completely exposed looking from the crystal? If so then he may have had a point but I doubt it unless he was on top of you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Scott-S6, that is wrong. If unit A can draw an unobstructed LOS to unit B, then unit B doesn't get any cover save. Period. (area terrain excepted). It doesn't matter if you are behind a barricade or not. Only TLOS counts. Page 22, Firing over a barrier, talks about something else entirely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 1) It is really a bunch of guesswork about that because of the models. 2) The necron codex is newer, they removed minimum points requirements for Named Characters in the newer codexes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apogee Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 Oh. well, thanks guys. A bit depressing, then - no way I could get cover from that thing, unless it was way far away. Damn hard to kill, too, since sisters are mostly melta for AT work... I was questioning this mostly because the other player was being very... disagreeable, such as asking me to re-roll things he claims he didn't see and allowing me to set up my cannoness to die by the nightbringer (didn't know he ignored invulnerables... ouch). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Remember if as much as a foot is obscured, that model gets a coversave. If you move you Sisters close to the terrain, I bet they (the unit as a whole)get a coversave as enough of them will be obscured. About the reroll-thing. Get a dice-box. Any dice that doesn't end up in the box is rerolled. About the Cannoness.....well, know your enemy. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Know your enemy and avoid him. C'tan are best avoided and ignored. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apogee Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yeah, I know that now... but still a pretty low blow, as he knew I knew little about the 'cron forces, and then said nothing while i detached her from a squad, shot, declared a charge, and blew two faith points... and then said "whelp, she's dead now". I suppose this topic is turning into something else completely now :tu:. Back on track, I don't think anything but grots could claim a cover save from your average barricade (roadblock thing). With the high angle, nothing will be 50% obscured, especially if any of the models aren't up against it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbad Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I think the 50% of the model rule is for vehicles. Infantry behind cover can be presumed to be crouching or ducking behind whatever is there. So yeah, if at least half of the squads' feet were obscured by the barrier then they get a cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divergent Reality Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 in general, it is the funny crystal on top that the particle whip (big blast of doom) is fired/measured from. so it can get line of sight on a good many models. sounds like its tome for an exorcist or two. they give a good bit of threat to the monolith. as gor the c'tan, i suggest you sit down and read their pages of rules. and next time, just ignore it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 The fifty percent of a model is for vehicles, for shots going over a linear obstacle all models in base contact with the obstacle count as being in cover for purposes of cover saves. So keep 50% of your sisters next to the wall and you will be OK. It doesn't matter from which angle the shot is coming from, the save represents them diving for cover behind the wall and they get the save associated with it, it should be a 4+ (assuming the barrier is something like a Jersey wall) but depending on the durability of the obstacle it could go either way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apogee Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share Posted March 13, 2009 Oh, cool. I'll have to check my rulebook... guess I shoudl have gotten saves afterall. So the angle of the shot doesn't matter at all, as long as the shot is coming from 'in front' of the cover? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I shoudl have clarified in my post ... if 50% of the SQUAD is behind cover then a cover save is granted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 However being base to base with "linear cover" like walls, hedges and barricades automatically means that model is considered to be in cover for anything on the other side of that line... so if 50% of the girls are at the wall you get the save, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogstaff Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Actually, the minimum army size for Celestine is 1500 points. There's no minimum point on C'tan, but do to the phase out rule, taking them at low points is a pretty significant handicap. Especially if it is then teamed up with a monolith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1916880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 The "Linear cover"-issue talks about units in base-to-base not giving cover save to whomever they are shooting at. It has zero impact on wether the unit in base-to-base with the obstacle recieves a cover save themselves when shot at by another unit. You use the regular LOS and Cover Save rules for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163057-true-los-from-a-monolith/#findComment-1917112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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