Telion vs IG heavy weapon teams

[a-nesuto]

can i use Telion's EoV to get rid of a heavy weapon in a heavy weapon team?

[Grey Mage]

If you do two wounds yes, remember the heavy weapon team comprises a gunner and a spotter so you have to kill both. However since your allocating them and no gaurdsmen born can save against that AP..... yeah, sure.

[Legatus]

However since your allocating them and no gaurdsmen born can save against that AP...

Unless they were equipped with carapace armour, naturally. But I guess they will lose that option in the next Codex.

 

But yeah, you would have to kill ethem both. It is not one guardsmen carrying a heavy weapon. It is a heavy weapon crew, and that crew is equipped with a heavy weapon. There is no one designated gunner, other than for the sake of one model using the heavy weapon and the other one using his lasgun.

[a-nesuto]

so its a 2 wound model? like a attack bike?

 

another quick question about Telion and EoV. if Telion hits and wounds with both shots, can i place both wounds on the same model.

[Cedric]

It depends. Telion, on his own, can't target the same model twice. With a squad shooting together with him, he might.

 

You cannot place a hit on the same model twice, unless every other member of the sqad already has a hit on them.

The standard shooting rules apply here.

[Legatus]

An imperial weapon team is not a single two wound model. It is two models, each of which can fire the heavy weapon. Sop if you kill one, the other one can continue to fire the heavy weapon. Don't be confused that one of the models is usually glued to the weapon (or sometimes both models on one base), that's for looks inly. Though the rumours say that in the next Codex Imperial Guard a weapon team will indeed be a single two wound model.

 

Telion can allocate the wounds instead of the opponent, but it still has to adhere to the wound allocation rules. Every model can only get one wound, unless each model of the target unit already is wounded once, at which point you can start allocating a second wound to each model, and so on. The only difference is that you get to decide who get's the wounds from telion, and not the opposing player.

[Grey Mage]

In the current codex it talks about how the two troopers often seen on the base are different models but are placed together for convenience. Its all good.

[ShinyRhino]

Slightly related question:

 

What order are wounds placed in? Let's say Telion and his squad of snipers fire at said heavy weapon team. The rest of the team lands two wounds on the three-weapon heavy weapon squad (Three heavy bolter crews, for argument's sake). Telion also lands two.

Who allocates wounds first? The owner of the Guardsmen, or the owner of Telion? Kinda important, as this scenario allows Telion to insta-kill one crew by wrapping both his wounds on one crew. But if Telion must allocate first, he can't insta-kill because he has to place his wounds on different crews.

I can't remember rules for this in the book off the top of my head. I suppose you could boil it down to a dice-off if needed.

[Cedric]

There's nothing in Telion's entry on the wound allocation sequence.

Common sense says he goes first, else the shooting player will be limited in target selection.

[nighthawks]

in this specific example, ShinyRhino, the 3 models are effectively the same "in game terms" and every 2 failed saves would result in a dead HB base.

 

as for WHICH base would be removed, Tellion would want the one that is of the most strategic importance to him, and the controlling player would want likewise, which would often result in 2 bases being debated over for casualty purposes. as telion can choose his target, and there are sufficient wounds to "wrap around" AND since this example offers no distinction between the models making saves (they all save together) it would result in the saves for the unit and tellion rolled seperately (if a save is available) and, if there are 2 or more unsaved including at least 1 from tellion, tellion would then choose the causalty. if both wounds from tellion were saved, then the controlling player would decide who to remove. if only one wound was unsaved, and it was from tellion, then tellion would determine who received that wound.

 

it can get messy. bring paper and pen.

[Legatus]

I must politely disagree with Nighthawks interpretation, for the following reason: If saves are permissible, and not automatically ignored by the weapon's AP, then wounds are allocated before saves are taken. If all the models in the enemy unit are of the same type and can make saves against the wounds caused by the unit and by telion, then his special rule will not matter, as he will simply contribute a few additional wounds to those put on the unit. Then saves would be rolled for all of the models, and casualties would be removed by the owning player. Only if the unit has different types of models his special rule comes into play, as he could then decide on what model type his wounds are allocated.

 

Generally, I would say that Telions wounds are allocated first, as otherwise the opposing player could affect where telions wounds go by allocating wounds strategically to other models. That is not the intention of the rule, as in the end, the wounds are supposed to hit the models decided by the player controlling telion.

 

Example: A unit with 2 tactical marines and one sergeant with powerfist get hit by Telion and his squad. Telion inflicts a rending wound (killing the model he wounds) while the rest of his squad inflict two wounds. If the enemy player would now allocate a wound to his sergeant and one to the tactical marines, then Telions wound would have to go on the tactical marines as well, since the sergeant already has one wound allocated to him and one of teh tacticals has not had one allocated to him. But Telions rule allows him to decide where his wound is put, and there is no tricking around that. He can decide that his wound has to go on the sergeant, and the enemy player then has to allocate the remaining two wounds on the tactical marines.

 

BUT, in the case mentioned above, with three weapon teams, all with heavy bolter, the unit does not consist of models of a different type. They are all "weapon team members", and each team is equipped with an identical heavy weapon. Every model of teh 6 man unit is a "heavy bolter crew member". There is no wound allocation, all saves are rolled together and models are removed for every failed save. That will allow the owning player to remove one model from each crew first, keeping the heavy weapons firing as long as 3 models survive.

If one of the team was equipped with a different heavy weapon, then that crew would be of a different model type. "Autocannon crew member", for example.

[nighthawks]

disagreement with me is fine.

 

upon re-reading, I'm see where Legatus is right - I remembered EoV as allowing tellion to allocate his wounds to a target model - they only allow his controlling player to "allocate" them. thus the typical rules for wound allocation are barely modified in the example of 3 IG HB teams, and the end results of this modification are irrelevant, as models of the same description are allocated wounds and make saves together no matter which, specifically, received a particular wound.

[ShinyRhino]

Ahhh, makes sense to me. Thanks for the help, gents.