A interesting quote on target prioritizing by Alexander Kinn

[theredcorsair]

Hello everybody,

I was looking through a section on Bols and couldn't help but notice this wonderful comment

 

Well, I know I run at least 3 tactical squads combat teamed even in 1000 point games. Most people just aren't ready for that many 3+ saves charging in their direction. When its a kill point mission suddenly 6 KP becomes 3. Of course marines for the most part are an elite army so they may not really apply in this scenario as much as, say guard, but I think there is something valuable in doing something unexpected in every game. People often discount my list when they don't see the terminators or landraiders. When you have a list where there is no concentrated value or win component, opponents tend to have a tougher time analyzing what to destroy.

 

Please discuss

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, I know I run at least 3 tactical squads combat teamed even in 1000 point games. Most people just aren't ready for that many 3+ saves charging in their direction.

 

Er yes they are. Every man and his Carnifex writes their army list with Marines in mind. Endless tactical discussions of units all across 40k revolve around how they'll fare against the 'typical' Tactical squad, and whether they can destroy such a target in a reliable time-frame. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see 2-3 of those squads destroyed comprehensively by Turn 3.

 

You have some of the cheapest transports in the game (Rhinos), and they're not half-bad on the turn they're smoke-wreathed (AV11 and 4+ cover save takes a fair bit of attention to destroy). Use them, or you'll lose your Marines to enemy assaults/guns as they struggle up the board. Remember, you can't really shoot while foot-slogging (outside of rapid-fire range, which won't eventuate till at least Turn 2), so you're wasting their heavy weapon (I favour plasma cannons cos no one wants to get shot by it, unless they're AV14 and thus don't care) and the squad bolters/plasma gun aren't firing for quite a while.

 

When its a kill point mission suddenly 6 KP becomes 3. Of course marines for the most part are an elite army so they may not really apply in this scenario as much as, say guard, but I think there is something valuable in doing something unexpected in every game.

 

Yeah, SM (like CSM, Nob Bikers etc) can reliably fit in a 2,000pt list and only have 12-13 KP's, whereas IG or Tau can quickly spiral into 20KP's due to Infantry Platoons (the former) and vehicle gun drones (the latter). Further demonstrating that the KP system is stupid and hence why many people just use VP's in their 'Annhilation' games.

 

Combat Squadding is surprising the first couple of times you experience it (as an opponent), but it's easily broken;

 

- Ganking a 5-man squad of Marines is far easier than killing all 10 at once. It also means you can pick on the Combat squad (usually the one with the heavy weapon camping back) without any fear of the 'hidden powerfist'

- By the same token, the squad with the hidden powerfist is easier to kill off quickly, as there are less albative bolter dudes to soak up damage. You could easily cause enough wounds to kill off the Veteran Sarge, and then all you've got to deal with are 4 x S4 attacks from the other guys, which won't do much.

 

That said, on Ravenwing and Biker squadrons Combat Squadding is excellent. They're each fast enough to avoid most enemy assault troops

and can threaten multiple objectives at once, but still remain one KP and one Troops choice at the same time. It's really annoying and surprising to have an Attack Bike roar out of nowhere and claim an objective.

 

People often discount my list when they don't see the terminators or landraiders.

 

More power to you I guess. SM armies don't have to feature those units, but they are excellent and very common (especially those ridiculous TH+SS squads).

 

When you have a list where there is no concentrated value or win component, opponents tend to have a tougher time analyzing what to destroy.

 

Not really. Target Priority in 5th edition goes;

 

- Any objective-based mission (2/3 games are), the major target is Troops, followed by transports, followed by Heavy Support.

- In 'Annhilation', the key is to kill more than you lose. Armies that have 'hammer' units (Obliterators, TH+SS Terminators, Nob Bikers) do well at this, while Guard and Tau are hobbled from the start by inadequate errata.

 

Tactical squads are the backbone to any competent SM army, much like Chaos Marines/Plague Marines are for CSM lists. Once they're gone, the SM player has essentially lost the game (unless he has Scouts or allied DH/WH stuff as Troops), except maybe armies led by Khan/Biker Captain or Pedro Kantor (Deathwatch/Crimson Fist themed lists).

[minigun762]

When you have a list where there is no concentrated value or win component, opponents tend to have a tougher time analyzing what to destroy.

 

 

This I will agree with.

If you build a list that is very balanced and almost boring in the lack of "wow!" units, I think it does make the opponent 2nd guess themselves a little bit on what to remove first.

The typical 1/2 Battle Company is a prime example, 3-4 Tacticals, 1-2 Assault Squads, 1-2 Devastators, basically alot of rank and file marines with some overlapping capabilities. Nothing really stands out in this list as the super scary unit, instead you see a wall of MEQs.

[theredcorsair]

this runs much deeper than I first imagined.

A battle company is really the most fearsome list, it packs everything, and everything can put down some hurt.

You also expand your "net" of control over the board with about 60-70-80 models.

[Koremu]

The 'Wall of Power Armour' technique is © the Black Templars :lol:

 

The ability to just put down a lot of T4 3+ saves is much underestimated.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

But then is a wall of marines going to do better than an army with more defined characteristics, after all a tactical squad is jack of all trades, master of none.

 

However i suppose a large number of marines can lend it both a psychological factor in that there are more rank and file units, in 1500 point matches you could have 8 tactical squads worth if you so chose and they can put quite a hurt on the opponent with sheer numbers of boltguns going round as well as the choice that the tacticals can be kitted out with weaponry that makes them a little more flexible.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This I will agree with.

If you build a list that is very balanced and almost boring in the lack of "wow!" units, I think it does make the opponent 2nd guess themselves a little bit on what to remove first.

The typical 1/2 Battle Company is a prime example, 3-4 Tacticals, 1-2 Assault Squads, 1-2 Devastators, basically alot of rank and file marines with some overlapping capabilities. Nothing really stands out in this list as the super scary unit, instead you see a wall of MEQs.

 

They don't have to have any 'shoot me first' signs attached to them, the structure of missions in 5th edition already does. Therefore, in 2/3rds of games Troops are No.1 priority, because once they are gone (with the exception of Sternguard) your opponent can't win.

In 'Annhilation' matches, it's all about bringing a handful of ultra-tough, hard-hitting units that will wipe most enemy units off the board. A 'generic' battle-company style of SM army simply doesn't have that structure to it, and in some cases you'll be fielding more KP's than your opponent.

 

It is daunting to see that much power armour in the field, but it's really a mirage. Most armies have access to ordnance weaponry, specifically the AP3 variety. On top of that, any unit with multiple power weapons will tear through Marines very quickly. A smart opponent simply has to prioritise which squads to die (ie that Combat squad with powerfist+flamer won't do much to that ultra-mobile Fire Prism, but the lascannons on the Devs might), and then execute. If you end the game with more objectives secure (or all the enemy's Troops dead), or in 'Annhilaition' you kill more KP's, you win. Doesn't matter if he outnumbers or whatever (in fact that can actually help in 'Annhilation').

[theredcorsair]

Another note:

Battle Company lists are worthless without elite units to help clear the board.

[Leonaides]

Another note - battle companies are rarely used particularly well as people dont seem to try to learn how to use the more basic troops when they can lget used to playing with the shiney terminators etc... An elite veteran unit dies just as easily as a non-elite tactical squad, and 400 pts of tactical marines will wipe the floor with 400 pts of terminators.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

But the terminators are so shiney!

 

No in all seriousness, you're right 400 points of tacticals may well be able to wipe 400 points of terminators. Then again, if you compare 2 different units the winner may always seem clear, but its the other elements of the armies that might win over. But i will disagree with you about tacticals dying just as easily as terminators, the terminators do have better armour after all and their equipment isnt exactly bad.

[Captain of The Inceptors]

I play a balanced bland reactive list consisting of:

Pedro + 5 man strenguard + HBrazorback

5x 10 man Tactical squad with free ML, FL, CC for srg + Rhino

10 man assault squad

Dreadnaught with MM + DCCW/SB

 

This army gives the enemy a message; I will use pedro, sternguard and assault as my main "hammer" backup up by the dreadnaught, and they would be right! But what it does mean is that the enemy has to dedicate quite a lot of his army towards protecting themselves from this lead section and has a lot less of his army left to attack the 5 rhino based tactical squads which when deployed correctly are very difficult to take out of play.

 

This allows me to have 6 scoring units that each have a rhino to either hide in or behind, remembering that you will never need to hold more than 3 objectives to win, and I get to play a massive multiple combat which is always interesting.

 

I always give the opponent first turn so that I can watch his deployment and first turn whilst I set up neutrally/defensively and react to my opponents now revealed plan.

 

It has so far proven effective against Marines, Necrons and Imperial Guard.

 

If anyone has an opinion on my tactics here please discuss.

[theredcorsair]

Thats a nice list, but I suggest you trade out a tactical for an assault squad. You can combat squad the other one for some more evenness

[Captain of The Inceptors]

That is exactly my plan for when I can afford to. I literally have no money to buy assault squad boxes, but I do have 10 marines with chainswords and pistol so I have been planning to convert their backpacks into jump packs. There is also the opportunity to put a techmarine in a rhino with 9 assault marines. the techmarine would provide a second spearhead to the force which might confuse the enemy whilst also lending his powerfist type attacks to the squad and his 'assault' weapons. this puts his unit at a similar price and killpower to pedro with the sterngaurd, and could be overlooked by an opponent.

[theredcorsair]

Good ol' target prioritization confusion

[theredcorsair]

I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts

[theredcorsair]

Agghhh....

No one speaks.

[Leonaides]

Yes we do, but the other voices are drowning our words out...

 

2 things I meant about tacs being just as survivable as vets - 1, I was actually talking about vets (vanguard/sternguard) not termies, and 2 - the weapons that really rack up the kills on PA generally do the same to termies (meltas, plasmas, PW's, or just good ol' rate of fire). the only heavy weapon that splits PA and termies into one gets normal save/one doesnt is missile launcher IIRC... Besides - my PA marines can survive shotguns, which is a damn sight more than my termies ever manage to do!

 

As for target prioritisation - taking a wall of tacs is just another way of trying to disguise your important units. Even if they are all tacs, some will be more important to you over teh course of the game - maybe they're the ones holding your objective, maybe they're the ones sent to intercept the enemy, maybe they're the ones off to get the enemy heavy weapons units, but they will exist, and its all about trying to get your opponent to not realise which ones they are at any given time. You can do the same with varied units, but it can be harder, although it can be ahrder to perform the function you need with your tactical squad than if it was a more specialised unit...

[theredcorsair]

Tacs are known for being able to handle many situations...

But still, they don't do it like specialized units.

But tacs still do the job quite well