Master Of Malfeasance X Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 It seems like every game I play against any army (with the notable exceptions of one courageous Blood Angels player and one stubborn Space Wolves player) goes like this: Vs. Eldar- Deployment: Eldar player holes up in one building which I have to go clean out. They never move unless they have a Falcon, but rarely have more than one vehicle. Mostly I see a preponderance of Dark Reapers. Play: Eldar shoot until I get near the building and start the close-fire mayhem. Outcome of game decided by whether Dark Reapers make cover saves or not. If the player has any vehicles, he will leave them in place and shoot them until the end of the game, then he will run them toward objectives. Vs. Tau Deployment: Tau player holes up in one building which I have to go clean out. They never move. Ever. Play: Tau shoot until I get near the building and start the close fire mayhem. Outcome of game determined by whether my Obliterators kill Broadsides or vice versa. Vs. Space Marines Deployment: The SM player holes up in one building which I have to go clean out. They never move. Unless they have a drop podding dreadnought. Play: SM shoot until I get near their building and hack them to pieces with screaming chainaxe and bolt pistol. Outcome of game decided before I even deployed. C:SM is weak and without spammed Land Raiders and storm shields, and even with them is still extremely vulnerable to the ultimate casualty-producing weapon: The plasma cannon. Vs. Tyranids Deployment: The Tyranid player holes up in one building which I have to go clean out. They never move. I have not seen a close combat Carnifex in ages. Play: Tyranids shoot their wonky weapons until I get near their building and VERY carefully do my close shooting and assaults. I'd like to think I play a fairly balanced army. I use two squads of 'Zerks, usually a squad of Thousand Sons and a squad of Plague Marines, or in place of the last two, I use 2 ten man 2x meltagun squads of CSMs. I use 6 Oblits and a Defiler. Occasionally, I play with a suicide squad of 3 deep striking terminators (heavy flamer). I am mechanized (rhinos). I have a single Lash Sorcerer. What happened to armies that moved and clashed and counter-moved? All I see now is gunline after gunline. Did they bring back overwatch in 5th and I wasn't paying attention? Even armies that have no right to field a gunline somehow field gunlines (never thought I'd have to actually GO and put pressure on an Ork army) and play like Guard. If you have a unit like Dark Reapers (which every Eldar army should have, I admit), fine, I accept that they don't move. That's their job: not moving. But a whole army like that? Those armies don't win wars. Is it so much to ask my opponent to think beyond a simple flowchart for winning a game? I might slash my wrists with my hobby knife when the new IG codex comes out and I start encountering professional couch potatoes who only ever have to touch their models to deploy and remove casualties. Explaining movement tactics to a new player: me: Alright, this is called a refused flank. Basically, you pick a side where he seems to have his most powerful units and then you deploy nothing in front of them. new player: (breathing through mouth) Why not just line up and shoot? I have lascannons. That building is perfect. It will hold all my guys. me: Sigh. Because this isn't Waco. new player: Where? me: I'm going to take my blood pressure medication now. new player: I'm going to up the cover save of this building... twice! Ha ha! Can't get me, my snipers have a 1+ cover save (sticks out tongue) me: It doesn't work like... nevermind. How about we go into the parking lot and I beat you to death with this big grey book? new player: Is there any cover out there? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Very constructive <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Of Malfeasance X Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 You were warned Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexwars1 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 lol, fair point. A LOT of games I play against relative noobs go throught either these, or with so many noobish mistakes (Charging with Fire Warriors :cuss!!) that it is difficult to enjoy a proper game. I would only totaly baricade myself in a building for a mission or campaign or somthing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathsHead Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 me: Sigh. Because this isn't Waco. Ha! That was all very amusing, particularly the Waco bit. Except that in Waco... well, nevermind. ::narrowly avoids ban-hammer:: Now I'm going to say something thoughtless and rash that some people will quite understandably think is just internet-dependent hate fueled whining or arrogant elitest snobbery. I apologize in advance and emphasize that I only say such things because I want more good and less bad. 40k is awesome in every way except as a board game, which is a shame because it doesn't have to be that way. The kind of godawful boring situations you've described above are partially a result of a clunky, oversimplified rules-set which has only ever been adjusted or refined in a ham-handed and piecemeal manner over the last however many years. Although, you wouldn't necessarily be wrong if you suggested that the other half of the problem was a proliferation of a mediocre, stingy, uncreative gamerdork attitude of "I MUST WIN NO MATTER THE COST IN HOURS OF BOREDOM" as opposed to an attitude of "I want to see cool things in the 40k world brought to life in an interesting and dynamic manner on the table-top". Seriously, I walk into a GW store, and I see two kinds of games happening on the tables: somber, tense affairs where the spiteful animosity between the players is detectable in the form of a nasty fresh-armpit sweat stink on one hand and spastic unfocused dice hurtling collisions of unpainted plastic engineered by sugar-fueled youngsters on the other. It makes me really, really not interested in playing 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Ha, must be really useful being on a site first and foremost about tabletop wargaming. I think... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathsHead Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Ha, must be really useful being on a site first and foeremost about tabletop wargaming.I think... I didn't say I didn't like tabletop wargaming, only that 40k has a not-so-awesome rules set in many respects and that for some reason people play it like it's Magic: The Gathering. This is why I'm interested in extensive house-rules and closely knit gaming circles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Ha, must be really useful being on a site first and foeremost about tabletop wargaming.I think... I didn't say I didn't like tabletop wargaming, only that 40k has a not-so-awesome rules set in many respects and that for some reason people play it like it's Magic: The Gathering. This is why I'm interested in extensive house-rules and closely knit gaming circles. Rawr That is all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Sure some builds, players, and even wholesale armies tend to attract a specific breed of players but we certainly don't play anywhere like that around here. <_< We play campaigns, tourneys (that look like nothing of what is described above) and random pick up games and the results and strategies used are often quite varied. So is there a point to this topic other than to complain about how people play at your local gamestore(s)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Sure some builds, players, and even wholesale armies tend to attract a specific breed of players but we certainly don't play anywhere like that around here. <_<We play campaigns, tourneys (that look like nothing of what is described above) and random pick up games and the results and strategies used are often quite varied. So is there a point to this topic other than to complain about how people play at your local gamestore(s)? Agreeing with Nihm here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Maybe try randomly setting up the terrain that way you can't guarantee they will have anything to hide in. Because one thing that annoys me is I often play on 4 by 4 boards which have about 5 bits of moderate/large bits of terrain. The terrain so often gets deployed in an X (objectives do a lot as well) one in each corner and 1 in the middle and this annoys the hell out of me and that's why I deploy terrain with a scatter dice and up to 6 d6. Sometimes you get really odd terrain or terrain that depending on deployment could really help one player but you haven't rolled for sides yet so you haven't been biased and in war you can't expect everything to be your way all the time and it makes games different. I know what your talking about I've been known to do that from time to time (or mostly do that) but that was in 4th or before where it was to my benefit to do that. Now generally I have to move alot more to grab objectives especially as I mostly play foot slogging armies. I guess you could always lashhip them out of cover XD. Oh I kind of played like this once against Dark Eldar but to block LoS rather than cover saves and so that they would be forced to move in such a way I would get at least one turn of shooting before they charged me. Also charging with fire warriors in not always a stupid thing to do. Its all about the situation <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Why is there always a building in every deployment zone? Why does that building always have line of sight to the whole table? Why aren't 1/3 of your games decided by who grabs a bunch of generally centralish objectives? Soundls like setup trouble to me. Also sounds like you aren't very patient with the new players. Try to be more patient. After all, the rules take a while to learn, and turtling is one of the easiest tactics to understand. If you can't - don't play them. Seriously. It'll be frustrating for you, and your frustration will lead to a bad game for them. My own games of 5e have all been monster mashes in the middle of the table, Then again, I haven't played much 5e. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Maybe you can do like 3rd and 4th Edition. When setting up terrain, pick a spot then roll a Scatter Dice and 2d6. Where ever the Dice Gods move it to, place the terrain there. It makes things much more interesting and fair, saying the ALMIGHTY DICE GODS are with you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I have noticed this more and more, even though 5th edition CC armies got a big boost, almost everyone seems to be holling up in buildings shooting...its so boring! But yea, its thier army, they payed however many hundred dollars like we did, so they can do what they want...untill my Khorne marines get there anyways :huh: The Key: Objectives! Capture and Control and Annhilation are just dry as dirt to me, and my group rarely plays them. We usually eithier do 3 Objectives lined across the center, or 5 with 3 across the center and one at each base. This forces the enemy out to fight. Ha I had one game with the 3 objectives lined across the center, he played SMs and sat there and shoot at me the whole game in his buildings. At the end of the game he had whipped out over half my units, while he had only lost 1 whole unit to my fire. He was all happy thinking he won...then I reminded him the goal was the objectives and I held all three...the smile dissapered quicker than a guardsmen being shot at by an assault cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I've certainly had games like this. Luckily none of my regular opponents do this, despite one being tau (his suits always go flanking and cause much pain) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 me: Alright, this is called a refused flank. Basically, you pick a side where he seems to have his most powerful units and then you deploy nothing in front of them.new player: (breathing through mouth) Why not just line up and shoot? I have lascannons. That building is perfect. It will hold all my guys. me: Sigh. Because this isn't Waco. new player: Where? me: I'm going to take my blood pressure medication now. new player: I'm going to up the cover save of this building... twice! Ha ha! Can't get me, my snipers have a 1+ cover save (sticks out tongue) me: It doesn't work like... nevermind. How about we go into the parking lot and I beat you to death with this big grey book? new player: Is there any cover out there? - :lol: :lol: :lol: I feel for ya. But like Nihm sz, it's not like that around here. My most frequient opponents are, SW's, SW's 13th Co., WE's, necrons, DE, (there is a guy that shows up rarely that plays IG & tau, so they are pretty stationary). SUGGESTIONS - as someone else said, random terrain (should be like that anyway. - play missions, in most missions locking yourself in the house isn't going to do anything towards winning the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 tbh you can't complain about other peoples armies and how they play them when your running a cookiecutter lash/PM/zerker/oblit list. :lol: pot,kettle,black........ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I'm with Nihm. Just pick one of two things; -Either find new players -Or set up a terrainless board, and go for broke! Yes, empty tables are fun. Like Beserkers in a button factory, or Beserkers in a battle or... In fact, empty tables are as fun as any Khorne Beserkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 they dont move in 5th ed , just shot... when 2/3 games are about objectives. Well am sorry for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 tbh you can't complain about other peoples armies and how they play them when your running a cookiecutter lash/PM/zerker/oblit list. ;) pot,kettle,black........ I hadn't noticed that,,,true, true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Tell said kid that he's a dumbass. Hearing the honest-to-god truth is a very important thing in this day and age when people are constantly sugar-coating everything. Smashing some's bubble with a sledge hammer will result in their changing for the better... unless they are immature and whiny... in which case you have to shun them into growing up ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra Bait Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hell, if I was running Tau, and I was staring down 6 oblits and TSons, I'd hide in cover too. It's not like I'll be able to use it when the Lash caster gets to me. Chaos armies are close-combat intense, and I know you're coming for me. When 5th ed first hit the ground, everyone at our FLGS loved hiding in cover since the cover saves were all over the place. But once we started playing for more objectives, people got over it. That, and flamers showed up all over the place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadSouls11 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I feel sorry for you dude, all my opponents are very aggressive types, in the last few games ive played ive been rushed by eldar to be defeated, had two tactical draws with the new marines and have punished a tau army with 1 sorceror w wings and warptime and 1 berzerker squad tearing through his entire static gunline force. My advice, find some older or more intuitive players. I could sort you out if you were down in australia Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 That's an odd breed of gamers you've got there. All gunline? No mech? In a highly objective-based game? Honestly, really? Oh, and yeah, you are playing what could be considered a cheesy list. If that has anything to do with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1917872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 That's what a Chaos Daemon army is for. "Oh, you like that cover you're in? I'll give you a turn of shooting before I'm on you like flies on stink." Truthfully, just use any DS unit. Terminators? Yes please. Or if you know you're dealing with an opponent who does this, try using Infiltrated Chosen to take up a designated building. That way when they approach, gank 'em. And with that list you use, it kinda seems like you're power gaming. I'd probably make it as hard as possible to kill me, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163116-what-is-it-with-people/#findComment-1918866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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