Tired of losing "Angry List" 1850 - thoughts?

[rackham19]

So I am, tired of wasting a Sunday afternoon getting my tail handed to me and have decided it's time to bring the mean. What do you kids think of this list?

 

Land Raider Redeemer (All Upgrades)

Chaplain in Term Arm

5 SS/TH Termies

 

Land Raider (All Upgrades)

5 SS/TH Termies

 

Whirlwind (Smoke + SB)

 

Rhino (All Upgrades)

10 Man Tac

 

Rhino (All Upgrades)

10 Man Tac w/Flamer

 

7 Man Scout Squad w/ 4 snipers, hvy bolter, and 2 close combat

Sgt. Telion

 

 

 

 

Mostly we play annihilation games and I grow weary of getting whacked. 40K is great fun, but losing all the time is NOT fun, so the more cheesy / power gamey I can be is fine with me....

[Brother Nodd]

Your list looks ok..but why not drop the second batch of Termies and landraider and build up some different units..more anti-armor.

 

Trying running Khan..nothing like giving your redeemer the ability to outflank..that's what I do..my redeemer is a serious threat all the time..popping in from the edge and pushing into someone's backyard always scares the hell out of them..run with a tactical squad in a rhino..the termies push 'em off the objective and tacs take it back.

Just an idea.

 

You didn't say how you were getting steam rolled..so some more info would help.

[tedwin183]

I'd drop the scout squad for khan as well. Leave both land raiders with the termies inside though. outflank both of them. I'd suggest a thunderfire over a whirlwind as well. better range and heavy 4 means you're hitting a lot of models.

[Koremu]

I think your main problem, to be honest, is that you are overspending on toys.

 

It's very easy to overspend and just buy everything, and it's usually a mistake.

 

Also, you should be taking the free Heavy Weapons.

 

Oh, and there is no point taking a Storm Bolter on a Whirlwind. The Whirlwind Missile System is turret mounted for a 360 degree arc of fire, and can be direct fired while moving 6" per turn. However, because it is an Ordanance weapon, you can't even fire Defensive Storm Bolters with it.

[waaanial00]

You are throwing another 45 points onto each Landraider? That is a little loco IMO, HK missile on a redeemer is possibly a good choice because Power Of The Machine Spirit (POTMS) allows you to fire it on the move but it is still an expensive single shot Krack Missile and there is no point in having this on your Lascannon Landraider because tank hunting is never a problem. I wouldnt take the multi meltas either because on both you wont need them, Redeemer needs to use the POTMS to flame two units at a time and normal lascannon is more than capable of frying a tank.

 

Dont forget that the primary purpose of both these is transport, the guns are really good but dont forget that they are transporting your assault terminators into battle which will be doing the majority of the legwork.

 

I think you are wasting points in upgrading your Rhinos as well. The only one I have been tempted to do of late is a dual Storm Bolter because it makes it a little more of a firebase for my Sternguard. I would suggest that your points are better spent elsewhere.

 

Your scout configuration is also a little bits of this and bits of that. If you are really wanting to take the scouts I would drop it back to 5, remove Telion and keep the 4 Snipers and Heavy Bolter, cheap and effective.

 

Honestly though 11 Kill Points at Annihilation is fine. Please put another vote in the "how are you getting crushed" suggestion box. I cant imagine how your guys are getting mushed other than sheer weight of numbers in combat taking down your Terminators and leaving the rest of your army without enough killing power to stop the eventual onslaught.

[rackham19]

Thanks. I will definitely scale back the upgrades on the vehicles.

 

Keep in mind that I was never getting beaten with this build, actually I have yet to play this build.

 

I was getting hammered with my three tac squad, 2 unit assault marines w/ jump chaplain, 2nd jump chappy for 2nd HQ, dread, predator / vindicator / whirlwind build.

 

It happened every possible way, usually kill points were not an issue because I was being killed to a man.

 

Orks (played by a 7 year old!) overwhelmed me, eldar dissected me, salamanders and BT slapped me around and CSM laughed to their dark gods as they kicked my smurf teeth in.

 

I tried unifying my force and concentrating my strength, I tried splitting up and positioning lascannons and heavy weapons where they would be able to get good shots at tanks, hell, I even tried playing defensively one game (orks) and let them come to me. ......also not a great choice.

 

Between dice and my lack of build skills there is no wonder I am losing, but I am hoping that this list will minimize the effect of the dice and keep the tactical choices (and thus errors) to a minimum.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Is it worth having so many TH/SS combos in your terminators?

 

Surely a couple of lightning claws will help fell a few enemies to cut down on enemy retaliation.

 

Personally i think 2 units of these guys is a little overkill, but hey if you can play it, why not eh? All the super kill power they pack..... :drool:

 

You dont have much in the way of speedy units, this could mean you get outmanuevered in battle but with so many vehicles of your own its unlikely.

 

The core of the army im thinking of building follows a similar pattern 2 tacticals and a scout squad, so i dont see any real problems there, although are the close combat variety scouts actually neccessary? if your snipers are shooting then it seems to be a waste to have 2 scouts not shooting, the scouts wont fare well in with only 2 CC armed scouts anyway.....

 

I agree that there doesnt really seem to be a dedicated anti armour option in the army, a multi melta might be okay on a land raider and the las cannons that the other one packs are nice, but again unless you are going to use those as your tank hunters, you might want to invest in something fast like a land speeder squad kitted out with multi meltas so you can bring the pain on the enemy armour fast.

 

Just my observations ;)

[rackham19]

I was going to use the CC scouts as "wounds fodder" to save my rifles.

 

That said, I am pulling out the cc scouts and stripping all the vehicles to standard kit, then adding 3 attack bikes with meltas, each one being a FA unit.

[Allerka]

Two squads of TH/SS termies is decent. Two squads of TH/SS termies with Vulkan is devastating.

 

I was crushing stuff in tournaments with one squad and Vulkan, definitely a painful unit. I'd still recommend all TH/SS for the added durability, you'll almost assuredly be facing lots of low AP/power weapons, and those 3+ INV saves help a LOT at reducing casualties.

 

As others have said, ditch the upgrades on the Rhinos. And, at the least, give your Tac squads the free weapons. You're trading off, at most, one bolter shot for the ability to put some hurt on something else if you find yourself able to stand still, no reason to not go for it.

 

Two Land Raiders will definitely bring the pain and soak up fire. In my last eight games with a Crusader, it got blown up once. I'd also suggest a Crusader instead of the regular LR, it can pump out a freak-ton of shots and really tear stuff up, even while still advancing. I'd forget about the HK missiles, too, and the extra armor is just redundant on them.

 

Using the Khan to Outflank them could be nasty, but be careful, because you run the risk of them coming in on opposite edges and leaving your forces divided.

[Hymirl]

You're wasting a lot of points in silly places, you don't need to buy all the upgrades for vehicles. Land raiders need only a multi-melta and rhinos need nothing at all. Secondly what you do want to upgrade is vet sarges in units, they like powerfists best to buy them one of those!

 

I'd alse fire Telion and the two useless combat scouts. Then you can dump them in the corner as a cheapy unit that might get ignored and can quietly try to sneak up to an objective near the end of the game...or just sit in your deployment zone to guard your objective if you have one. Instead of a chaplain which is rubbish in the current rules I'm really surprised you've not gone for Vulkan, you say you've bored of being beaten by salamanders then lets all play with Vulkan, or in your case, Vulkan's identical twin brother once removed.

 

But at the end of the day you can ask guys on the internet to help optimise an army list all you like and still you'll be able to put it on the table and get it killed by a 7 year old if you don't know what you're doing. Perhaps it would be better to step back from the 'bigger better badder' idea of playing where you simply try everything in the list in the hope that something will automatically win games for you and focus a little more on what you're doing with it.

 

Looking at the list you've presented it seems all to be "run over there and give them a kicking right now" sort of tactic, you've go no fire support (scouts don't really count for much), and no alternative options available (a couple of long range pot shots from land raiders is pretty much a waste of their time). In my experience I notice that ballanced armied used by someone who knows what they're doing with it will beat people using so called power lists that they're unfamilliar with.

 

For example, those combat terminators you have. How many orks can you throw them at and expect to win? 20? 30? 50? You can do a bit of math and pick and average but you need to get a feel for what the army can do, and then you can adjust your tactics to make up for what it can't do by having units support each other.

[rackham19]

You make a very interesting point about knowing what to do with what you have. Sadly, I am completely clueless. Hours of reading message boards and a years worth of playing have taught me both jack and...well you know the rest.

 

At the end of the day I just want to have a good time and win every once and a while. If that means a friggin "easy button" so be it.

 

I guess the question is, what is the "easy button" and how the hell do i push it?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

You mean how to create an army that will win most of the time with no trouble?

 

Thats a tough one, probably impossible since your enemies will have varying lists. My suggestion, take the list ideas from here. Play a few games and perhaps gradually build up in points, it will hopefully give you a feel for what each unit does. Small games will let you sample the HQ and troops and give you a feel for how well they can cope, increasing the points score over time will let you introduce more units and give you a feel for those.

 

Thats how you can learn how to know the units like the back of your hand and in a battle should allow you to make accurate judgements. Also by going up small increments of points you can change anything that didnt fare as well as you would like or anything you think would be better.

 

Just make sure that the list you build has the basics and that way you should be able to tailor it for anything really.

[Allerka]

You make a very interesting point about knowing what to do with what you have. Sadly, I am completely clueless. Hours of reading message boards and a years worth of playing have taught me both jack and...well you know the rest.

Don't feel bad. It took me five years and three editions of the game to finally get to the point where I can consider myself a decent player now. As it's been said, experimentation is key. Figure out what works for you, what doesn't, and HOW to use the stuff.

[waaanial00]

You make a very interesting point about knowing what to do with what you have. Sadly, I am completely clueless. Hours of reading message boards and a years worth of playing have taught me both jack and...well you know the rest.

 

At the end of the day I just want to have a good time and win every once and a while. If that means a friggin "easy button" so be it.

 

I guess the question is, what is the "easy button" and how the hell do i push it?

 

My suggestion for becoming a better player is enter into some combat patrol missions. They force you to make the most out of what you have on the table without allowing you to power game your way through the issue. I have become a decent player with Orks because of this tactic, plus it allows you to get more games in a shorter space of time.

 

Then organise an Escalation Campaign which will teach you how to build on your combat patrol force that you have built up confidence with. Plus the advantage is that you will have a small pool of players who will be doing the same thing and building on experience. This will hopefully mean that you build up a nice core of opponents who know you quite well.

 

Playing straight off at 1500 points means playing people at their comfort zone so it always feels a bit of an up hill challenge, I am one of those players who keeps changing his list and I play against a number of people who know their lists inside and out. Needless to say I dont win that much with my marines because I have only been playing with them for about 3 months.

 

Hope this gives you food for thought.

 

Wan