Confused about Grey Knights

[ozorion]

I'm usually a Witchhunters player, but as a part of a 5th Edition W40K campaign some friends of mine started, I'm also now trying out a Daemonhunters army. I played my first game with the army yesterday with a friend (she brought Chaos Daemons of Slaanesh) and the battle certainly raised a lot of questions...

 

I'm guessing that most of the issues have arisen from the change from 4th edition to 5th edition, along with incompatibilities with the Daemonhunters codex.

 

Let me start by saying I won the battle, so I'm not here to whine about Daemon armies being over powered, it just seems as though Daemonhunters are the army least suited to fighting Daemons. In the end I only managed to win because her Keeper of Secrets scattered during its deployment on to my Dreadnaught and rolled the mishap result that gave instant death (so she was pretty much 200 points down for the rest of the game).

 

My first concern was that I'm told Daemonic powers don't count as Psychic powers for the purpose of working out if they're affected by The Aegis special ability of Grey Knights. Given that Daemons never have to test Perils of the Warp on their powers (since it would seem a little odd if they were suddenly attacked by a Daemon from the Warp), the understanding is that they are a rules set aside from Psychic powers and are thus not subject to the protection of the Aegis.

 

The other concern was over the use of Force Weapons. Force Weapons would appear to be a pretty common Wargear for Grey Knights (and Grand Masters effectively have one automatically in their Nemesis Weapon). Yet I'm told by my fellow player that Daemons aren't subject to the instant death rule of Force Weapons. I couldn't find rules to this effect in the Daemonhunters book, but I'm assured it's in the Chaos Daemons book.

 

Basically I quickly found my units getting manifested within assault range of, then having one round of shooting before being completely overwhelmed by the high initiative, attacks, and rending abilities of the Slaanesh Daemons. I had a squad of 6 Terminators wiped out in my second turn by a group of five Fiends of Slaanesh. I'm used to fighting battles against large quantity, deadly melee opponents like Orcs or Tyranids, but I'm used to the several rounds of shooting you get to thin them out before they get to you.

 

In my favour, we didn't play the rule that Daemon Packs re-enter the game after being defeated as the logic in the book was that the rule compensated for the fact that Grey Knights were so effective against Daemons. The opposite seemed to be the case so we didn't use the rule... it didn't seem to fit with several of the Grey Knights weapons and abilities were useful against anything except Daemons (ie - Force Weapons, the Aegis). It was also noted that their effect on the Warp Instability of Daemons was no longer used in 5th edition. I also managed to lose a whole squad to the new Fearless rules as well.

 

The one rule that couldn't work out that we did play in my favour was over the use of Psycannon Bolts on vehicles. I took a vehicle (Dreadnaught) with multiple bolt weapons (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters and the Storm Bolter attachment on the Close Combat Weapon)... we couldn't work out if the Psycannon Bolts wargear applied to all bolt weapons on the vehicle or just one weapon system. In the end we decided on the former.

 

Overall I was a little concerned despite winning the game. It seemed that the only way I won was to err in the favour of having Psycannon Bolts on all weapons of the Dreadnaught and having the luck of the Keeper of Secrets dying without even getting on the board.

 

Does anyone else play Daemonhunters and find any of this resonates? Am I just a bad Daemonhunters player? It just seems to me that they're not very effective against their chosen opponent.

[killersquid]

They are pretty :cussty agaisnt daemons, unless you build your list to fight them. More often then not, 'balanced' Grey Knight armies will get trumped by deamons. Thankfully, agaisnt most other armies they can work rather well. (Or at least I've won more often then not agaisnt anything but daemons).

[==Me==]

Psycannons, incinerators, Land Raiders, mystics. Daemon player's worst nightmares.

[DinoDoc]

The other concern was over the use of Force Weapons. Force Weapons would appear to be a pretty common Wargear for Grey Knights (and Grand Masters effectively have one automatically in their Nemesis Weapon). Yet I'm told by my fellow player that Daemons aren't subject to the instant death rule of Force Weapons. I couldn't find rules to this effect in the Daemonhunters book, but I'm assured it's in the Chaos Daemons book.

I can put your mind at ease here. This is one of the benefits of having an old codex. According to the rules laid down in our codex, our force weapons slay outright rather than cause instant death which gets around the eternal warrior rule.

Basically I quickly found my units getting manifested within assault range of, then having one round of shooting before being completely overwhelmed by the high initiative, attacks, and rending abilities of the Slaanesh Daemons.

* Rites of Exorcism: Because daemons assaulting Grey Knights units are required to take a difficult terrain test when assaulting, they will fight at Initiative 1 in the first round of close combat (unless they have assault grenades -- like frag grenades -- or their equivalent).

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=150103

In my favour, we didn't play the rule that Daemon Packs re-enter the game after being defeated as the logic in the book was that the rule compensated for the fact that Grey Knights were so effective against Daemons.

That's exactly what you should have done as the ‘Sustained Attack’ rule isn’t included in the current rules.

[mughi3]

DinoDoc summed it up nicely

IIRC psycannon bolts work in all bolter type weapons so yes HBs get them as well.

 

:D

[Aidoneus]

My first concern was that I'm told Daemonic powers don't count as Psychic powers for the purpose of working out if they're affected by The Aegis special ability of Grey Knights. Given that Daemons never have to test Perils of the Warp on their powers (since it would seem a little odd if they were suddenly attacked by a Daemon from the Warp), the understanding is that they are a rules set aside from Psychic powers and are thus not subject to the protection of the Aegis.

This is true. There isn't a single psychic power in the daemon codex. I don't know why they're abilities and not psychic powers, but that's the way it is. Kinda sucks.

 

The other concern was over the use of Force Weapons. Force Weapons would appear to be a pretty common Wargear for Grey Knights (and Grand Masters effectively have one automatically in their Nemesis Weapon). Yet I'm told by my fellow player that Daemons aren't subject to the instant death rule of Force Weapons. I couldn't find rules to this effect in the Daemonhunters book, but I'm assured it's in the Chaos Daemons book.

Here, you're in luck. While it's true that force weapons that cause 'instant death' no longer affect daemons (due to their Eternal Warrior rule), our force weapons do not cause 'instant death,' per se. They simply kill the target outright. It might seem like a technicality, but fifth edition is ruled by the concept of codex-trumps-rulebook, and that's what our codex says. In many ways it's a burden to have a codex two editions old (that's right, 3rd edition, not 4th), but sometimes it works out in our favor. ;) For more info on technical matters like this, check out the Daemonhunters FAQ thread stickied at the top of this forum.

 

Basically I quickly found my units getting manifested within assault range of, then having one round of shooting before being completely overwhelmed by the high initiative, attacks, and rending abilities of the Slaanesh Daemons. I had a squad of 6 Terminators wiped out in my second turn by a group of five Fiends of Slaanesh. I'm used to fighting battles against large quantity, deadly melee opponents like Orcs or Tyranids, but I'm used to the several rounds of shooting you get to thin them out before they get to you.

Daemons are tricky like this for every army. The best thing you can do is to spread out enough that he can't surround you, but not so much that your units can't support each other. Keep you back to a board edge too. When he comes down, make sure he's taking dangerous terrain checks for every unit that appears in terrain. Once he's down, move away as fast as you can, and focus-fire on units in such a way to keep as many of your own units out of assault range as possible. You're probably going to receive at least one charge turn two, but try to keep it from being 2 or 3 charges. Then just keep kiting (moving away while shooting) until you run out of room, or enemy units. It's best to work your way towards one flank, to buy yourself more time. At the end of the day though, you're just going to have to hope that you can deal with whatever remnants of squads finally get through to you.

 

In my favour, we didn't play the rule that Daemon Packs re-enter the game after being defeated as the logic in the book was that the rule compensated for the fact that Grey Knights were so effective against Daemons. The opposite seemed to be the case so we didn't use the rule... it didn't seem to fit with several of the Grey Knights weapons and abilities were useful against anything except Daemons (ie - Force Weapons, the Aegis). It was also noted that their effect on the Warp Instability of Daemons was no longer used in 5th edition. I also managed to lose a whole squad to the new Fearless rules as well.

You did everything correctly here. Not only does the daemonic infestation refer to specific units that no longer exist, it gives them a rule that no longer exists either (sustained assault was in the 4th edition rulebook). As you said though, this is balanced out by instability no longer existing either.

 

The one rule that couldn't work out that we did play in my favour was over the use of Psycannon Bolts on vehicles. I took a vehicle (Dreadnaught) with multiple bolt weapons (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters and the Storm Bolter attachment on the Close Combat Weapon)... we couldn't work out if the Psycannon Bolts wargear applied to all bolt weapons on the vehicle or just one weapon system. In the end we decided on the former.

This one is debated every now and then on this forum. While it's never decided unanimously one way or the other, the plurality of people (myself included) tend to think that it applies to all weapons (of the appropriate types) on a vehicle. So in the case of your dreadnought, you'd pay one time for the upgrade, and it would work on both the heavy bolter and the storm bolter.

 

Does anyone else play Daemonhunters and find any of this resonates? Am I just a bad Daemonhunters player? It just seems to me that they're not very effective against their chosen opponent.

Knowing nothing about your unit choices or tactics, I can't say whether or not you're a 'bad Daemonhunters player.' It certainly doesn't sound like it. And to be sure, everything you say resonates among the community here. As ==Me== pointed out, while our special rules aren't much good any more, we do have a limited number of weapons/psychic powers that can still sway things in our favor versus daemons. While I don't recommend sanctuary unless you're expecting lots of daemon armies, psycannons and incinerators (and mystics, if you happen to have an inquisitor) are always worth taking. Other than that, you'll just need to use your superior grey knight cunning to carry the day! :D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My first concern was that I'm told Daemonic powers don't count as Psychic powers for the purpose of working out if they're affected by The Aegis special ability of Grey Knights. Given that Daemons never have to test Perils of the Warp on their powers (since it would seem a little odd if they were suddenly attacked by a Daemon from the Warp), the understanding is that they are a rules set aside from Psychic powers and are thus not subject to the protection of the Aegis.

 

Yep, stupid but true. Daemonic shooting/abilities are not psychic powers, they are 'Gifts' and thus unaffected by Aegis. Enjoy getting your Knights 'Pavaned' around the board by a CD player, while a CSM player scatches his head at psychic hoods/Aegis deflecting his Lash Prince's attempts.

 

The other concern was over the use of Force Weapons. Force Weapons would appear to be a pretty common Wargear for Grey Knights (and Grand Masters effectively have one automatically in their Nemesis Weapon). Yet I'm told by my fellow player that Daemons aren't subject to the instant death rule of Force Weapons. I couldn't find rules to this effect in the Daemonhunters book, but I'm assured it's in the Chaos Daemons book.

 

Codex > BRB, this has been established multiple times. We have an entry in our armoury called 'force weapon', which has similiar but subtly different rules to the 'generic' force weapon ability presented in the BRB. Basically, we 'slay outright', we do NOT inflict 'Instant Death'. Therefore, anything from Synapse creatures to Eternal Warriors like Chaos Daemons are vulnerable to it.

Something to note is that while the DH force weapon rules allow us to 'slay outright' anything after inflicting an unsaved wound (and passing the psychic test), we can't use any other powers while doing so. Tzeentchian Sorcerors and SM Epistolaries can use their force weapon (which inflicts ID as per the BRB rules) and another psychic power.

Basically I quickly found my units getting manifested within assault range of, then having one round of shooting before being completely overwhelmed by the high initiative, attacks, and rending abilities of the Slaanesh Daemons. I had a squad of 6 Terminators wiped out in my second turn by a group of five Fiends of Slaanesh. I'm used to fighting battles against large quantity, deadly melee opponents like Orcs or Tyranids, but I'm used to the several rounds of shooting you get to thin them out before they get to you.

 

You need Mystics, psycannons and incinerators. Mystics will let you get in a crucial round of shooting when the Daemons land (thus killing them before they can shoot/Run), and psycannons/incinerators annhilate most Daemonic infantry (Plaguebearers require plasma cannon/Grey Knight Terminators charging them).

Slanneshi Daemons have an ability called 'Aura of Aquiesence', that basically grants them frag grenades. Therefore, while they don't go to I1 when assaulting Grey Knights (due to 'Rites'), they still have to roll for their assault range as if moving through difficult terrain (ie 2D6 pick the highest for Daemonettes, 3D6 pick the highest for Seekers).

In my favour, we didn't play the rule that Daemon Packs re-enter the game after being defeated as the logic in the book was that the rule compensated for the fact that Grey Knights were so effective against Daemons. The opposite seemed to be the case so we didn't use the rule... it didn't seem to fit with several of the Grey Knights weapons and abilities were useful against anything except Daemons (ie - Force Weapons, the Aegis). It was also noted that their effect on the Warp Instability of Daemons was no longer used in 5th edition. I also managed to lose a whole squad to the new Fearless rules as well.

 

Also, 'Sustained Attack' no longer exists, so 'Daemonic Infestation' is meaningless.

Likewise, because all Daemons are Fearless (the Instability rules actually exist in the DH's codex), they auto-pass the Morale check for Instability and thus are effectively immune.

The new 'Fearless' rules about losing combat are brutal, but remember it works both ways. All Daemons are Fearless, so if you beat them hard in combat, they'll be taking auto-wounds against their usually mediocre invulnerable saves (so things like depleted Bloodletter and Daemonette packs will die pretty quickly).

 

The one rule that couldn't work out that we did play in my favour was over the use of Psycannon Bolts on vehicles. I took a vehicle (Dreadnaught) with multiple bolt weapons (Twin Linked Heavy Bolters and the Storm Bolter attachment on the Close Combat Weapon)... we couldn't work out if the Psycannon Bolts wargear applied to all bolt weapons on the vehicle or just one weapon system. In the end we decided on the former.

 

There are two types of psycannon bolts; one for non-vehicles, one for Grey Knight vehicles;

- The former is only for Grey Knights and Inquisitors, and can be used with a bolt pistol, bolter (including combi-bolters) or storm bolter.

- The latter is for Grey Knight vehicles only, and can be used with storm bolters or heavy bolters only.

 

Therefore, with your example, the GK Dreadnought would've had the bonus for both it's twin-linked heavy bolters and it's storm bolter (thus, all it's shooting would've been AP4 and ignored invul saves). So, you did it right :D

People often attempt to use psycannon bolts with a GK Landraider Crusader, in the hope of using it on the Hurricane sponsons (which would be awesome, I admit). However, the vehicle entry clearly states 'storm bolters and heavy bolters only', so the Hurricanes cannot benefit (the only weapon on a GK LRC that would benefit would be a pintle-mounted storm bolter).

Does anyone else play Daemonhunters and find any of this resonates? Am I just a bad Daemonhunters player? It just seems to me that they're not very effective against their chosen opponent.

 

You aren't a bad player, you're just new to the army and not aware of the little tricks and abilities we have against Chaos Daemons (despite being 2 editions behind them on the 'codex creep' scale). In essence;

 

- Mystics are one of the best force-multipliers you can ever take. Here is the standard anti-Daemon spam people use;

 

Inquisitor with 'Sanctuary', 2 x Mystics

(47 points)

 

Take 2-3 of those and stick them inside GK Landraiders or a dedicated Landraider transport. Not only will the Landraider extend the bubble of 'Sanctuary' to 3" from it's hull (making a nice big 'impassable terrain' area to Daemons), it also passes the Mystic bonus 12" from it's hull. With 2-3 of these Landraiders/Crusaders set up in close support of your Grey Knight squads, you can annhilate entire armies of Daemons as they emerge from the Warp.

 

- Psycannons and incinerators are crucial on your Grey Knights. In general, I take psycannons on the Troops squads and incinerators on the Terminators. The psycannon Troop squads hang back with the Mystic-boosted, 'Sanctuary' generating Raiders/Crusaders and hold objectives, while the Grandmaster/Stern and bodyguard assault things that live after the lascannon/psycannon hell they endured arriving. The incinerator lets them burninate things like Daemonettes or Seekers without having to enter combat with them.

 

- As a bit of extra support to your army (so as to not be caught off guard by Nurgle-heavy lists), take one of the following (or both if you wanna really cause some pain) ;

(HQ)

Inquisitor Lord with 'Sanctuary'

2 x heavy bolter servitors, plasma cannon servitor

2 x Mystics, 2 x Sages

(187 points)

 

and/or

(Heavy Support)

GK Dreadnought, plasma cannon, DCCW+incinerator, 'Sacred Hull'

(150 points)

 

The former grants you another 'Sanctuary' bubble, more Mystic assistance and has (essentially) a twin-linked plasma cannon and two heavy bolters to contribute to your army's firepower.

The latter can offer the same plasma cannon help, plus an incinerator for even more death, and can assault most Daemonic Infantry (Seekers of Slannesh are the only unit with high enough Strength and Rending to pop AV12) without fear (as they don't have anti-tank). If you need to tie up a squad of Bloodletters to prevent them charging your Knights, he can do it.

Also, when getting charged by Daemons, both have excellent defenses. The Lord has 'Sanctuary', which is impenetrable and can last all game once turned on (only deactivates if he moves), while the Dreadnought forces any Daemon charging it to roll for difficult terrain (and thus they go at I1 in that round of combat, just like with 'Rites'). This give the Dreadnought the oppertunity to bash the enemy Daemons with his DCCW (especially things like Greater Daemons) before they get to tear him apart.

[Gentlemanloser]

While I can't do much but echo the sentiments and information of the posters above, I'd advise you to seriously consider not taking Sanctuary versus a Daemon army.

 

Bar a couple of specialised units, the Daemon army has nothing that can enter nor fire into a Sanctuary Bubble, making it really a pointless game to play, for both sides, if you keep your troops within Sanctuary Bubbles. And if you don't, there was no reason to take the power in the first place. ;)

 

Apart form that, watch out for Flamers, 'Letters (including the Skulltaker), 'Crushers and DPs of Nurgle, if your opponent starts to run non Slannesh specific lists. These units will provide a lot of heartache.

 

Psycannons are good, but the Invulnerable saves of the Daemons aren't high enough that most Dameon players rely on the Saves to keep them in the game. Thier troops are very fragile to normal fire, and those that aren't have a 3+ Armour save anyway.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Edit:

 

Dreadnoughts are very good versus Deamons, if you don't face three DP lists, as there's not much (a few Rending attacks with Furious Charge) that can really hurt the AV12 in CC. Great ways' to tie up units while you beat them around the head with a DCCW. ;)

 

Don't bother with them if you face multiple DP. They'll eat them alive.

[Lungboy]

Bar a couple of specialised units, the Daemon army has nothing that can enter nor fire into a Sanctuary Bubble, making it really a pointless game to play, for both sides, if you keep your troops within Sanctuary Bubbles. And if you don't, there was no reason to take the power in the first place. ;)

 

In the mission with 2 objectives, being able to DS an Inquisitor with Sanctuary onto the enemy objective and effectively lock it down can be very effective. Even in the multiple objectives mission it's a strong tactic.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes. Totally.

 

But don't expect to play that opponent again.

 

It's not a fun game when your army can do absolutly nothing in return.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Bar a couple of specialised units, the Daemon army has nothing that can enter nor fire into a Sanctuary Bubble, making it really a pointless game to play, for both sides, if you keep your troops within Sanctuary Bubbles. And if you don't, there was no reason to take the power in the first place. msn-wink.gif

 

Actually dude, nothing can. Soulgrinders are 'Daemons' just like everything else is, so they are equally affected.

 

You can't really keep your infantry inside Sanctuary bubbles all-game, cos you need to move out to grab objectives. It's really more of a way of keeping your Raiders and fragile Mystics alive, while the Grey Knights pwn the Daemons back to the warp.

 

Apart form that, watch out for Flamers, 'Letters (including the Skulltaker), 'Crushers and DPs of Nurgle, if your opponent starts to run non Slannesh specific lists. These units will provide a lot of heartache.

 

Yeah, those are pretty much the best units from the Daemons codex. I'd include the Bloodthirster (he's the close-combat counterpart to a Landraider; unstoppable, insanely powerful) and Plaguebearers in that 'top-tier' list, but otherwise you are spot on. Bloodcrushers are especially problematic, as they can shrug off psycannon/incinerator (much like the MC's), and it's inefficient to use Raider lascannons on them (when the Greater Daemons require attention). IST plasma guns or Inquisitor retinues with plasma guns/plasma cannon servitor are really your best option, you can't really risk your Terminators in combat with them (even though they suffer from 'Rites', like all Khornate Daemons).

 

Don't bother with them if you face multiple DP. They'll eat them alive.

 

Dreadnoughts are handy for supplying additional lascannon/krak missile to kill Greater Daemons/Princes with, so don't discount them entirely. But yes, in combat most Princes/Greater Daemons will slaughter it.

 

In the mission with 2 objectives, being able to DS an Inquisitor with Sanctuary onto the enemy objective and effectively lock it down can be very effective. Even in the multiple objectives mission it's a strong tactic.

 

Really risky strategy there (you'd have to buy him Terminator armour to do that), but it could work.

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually dude, nothing can.

 

There's at least one ability that doesn't require LoS, so would be able to hit the Inq in the Sanctuary Bubble, and I'm sure there's a second.

 

But that's it, and you really have to trick out your Dameon list to do anything about Sanctuary.

 

It's as close to an IWIN as it get sin 40K. A Dameon army facing multiple (or some cases even one) Sanctuaries might just as well pack up and go dom something fun instead.

 

Versus the Two Objective one, you can make it impossible for the Dameon army to win by sitting on your Oblective. All you then need to do is roll up a LR onto thier and pop Sanctuary for the insta win. Same for Seize Ground, but with more objectives.

 

And if you get annihalation, keep you entire force in the Sanctuary bubbles and snipe a few kills. No way the Daemon army can win.

 

It's crappy to play against, and I seriosuly doubt you'll get a second game versus a Dameon player using it.

 

"Your turn"

"Hmmm, I can't shoot or assault anyone in your army. Your turn...."

[number6]

Firstly, ozorion, welcome to this forum and to the Inquisition armies! I think you'll find this to the richest online resource for both DH and WH anywhere. (See the nice string of posts above this one?)

 

Secondly, note that the DH are probably the single most difficult army in the game to learn to play "competitively". It's an old codex, our unit selections are slim (and getting slimmer all the time as the SM and IG codexes get updates, effectively removing chunks of our possible induction options), and pure DH armies just aren't easily categorized as either "shooty" or "assaulty". They're very unique, and demand a unique tactical approach as well. I highly recommend reviewing the links in our Online resources topic, stickied at the top of this forum.

 

Thirdly, your rules observations are nothing new. :) As noted, the DH codex is an old codex that has never been FAQ'd or Errata'd "adequately" or completely. This leaves us with a number of obvious questions and rules conflicts vis-a-vis the current game and more modern codexes. An excellent summary of these rules quirks has been summarized in marid's DH Gotcha FAQ, also stickied at the top of this forum. Regarding these rules, be it known that you and your opponents are more than welcome to "house rule" any changes you like to them, but that topic -- and the answers already provided here in this thread -- assume that you will be playing purely by the RAW. There are upsides and downsides to going in either direction.

[Prathios]

I noticed nobody really mentioned using grimoire of true names... does not cutting ws in half go a long way in keeping your squads alive in cc? WS 2 vs WS 5 seems like a great way to mitigate losses. Just a thought. I dont have my dex in front of me so perhaps im forgetting something.

[revnow]

@ The OP

I'll try and sum up everyone's comments for you

- Read the DH gotcha FAQ stickied at the top of this forum: A lot of Daemonhunter players end up getting thrashed by Daemon armies due to simple unfamiliarity with how Codex: Daemonhunters operates in 5th Edition. The Force Weapon issue is a great example. There are a lot of very cool tools Daemonhunters have in the 5th Edition rules, and knowing them is a boon to any DH player.

 

- Incinerators and psycannons: Choosing between this is dependent on your play style. Psycannons, although expensive, work well for shooty, take and hold style Daemonhunters. They allow you to put a good volume of fire downrange, and then they switch to assault weapons as your opponent charges, giving you the option to charge while still being able to use the weapon. They are also preferable to incinerators against monstrous Daemons (ie Keeper of Secrets). Incinerators are preferable for mechanized shock troop style of play (Dual/Tri- Land Raider armies). They are particularly useful against horde Daemon armies and Slaanesh (wounds on 2+ usually).

 

- Sacred Incense: This should be a staple for any competetive Daemonhunter player (usually on a Grand Master). -1 Initiative to any engaged Chaos unit for 10 points is a godsend, and works equally well against Chaos and Daemon armies. It turns the Grand Master into a Daemon Prince killing machine.

 

- Grimoire of True Names (Against Daemons and Chaos): Halving any Daemon's weapon skill is brutal, but is especially true against Grey Knights. Now every Daemon hits on 4s and get hit on 3s ('Thirster exempted).

 

- Mystics: place in a Retinue with either 3 heavy bolters, or a slimmed down support retinue next to a purgation/minipurgation squad with 2-4 psycannons. This is especially important for shooty Daemonhunter players because these squads create 14" danger zones for deepstriking Daemons. This forces most Daemon players to deepstrike further out, giving a Daemonhunter player more turns of shooting before an imminant assault.

 

- Dread Choice: Daemonhunters are really weak in terms of Anti Tank firepower, which can be compensated for with properly loaded Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders. Since you are taking Dreadnoughts, Heavy Bolter loadouts leave you weak to armor, particularly Soul Grinders when facing Daemons. If you are going to play shooty Daemonhunters, your Dreadnoughts should at least be taking a twin linked lascannon, if not a missile launcher as well (commonly referred to as "Hellfire"). Personally I like my Dreads to maintain versatility so I would equip TLLC and Dreadnought Close combat weapon with incinerator, but thats a personal preference.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

There's at least one ability that doesn't require LoS, so would be able to hit the Inq in the Sanctuary Bubble, and I'm sure there's a second.

 

You are correct... ;) on closer inspection, 'Boon of Mutation' (specifically says no LOS required) and 'Aura of Decay' will bypass 'Sanctuary'. 'Pavane' will not, because it follows the normal shooting rules.

 

But that's it, and you really have to trick out your Dameon list to do anything about Sanctuary.

 

It's as close to an IWIN as it get sin 40K. A Dameon army facing multiple (or some cases even one) Sanctuaries might just as well pack up and go dom something fun instead.

 

Lords of Change, Tzeentchian Heralds, the Blue Scribes, Fateweaver and Tzeentchian Princes can all cast 'Boon of Mutation' on the Inquisitor and kill him, but if he's inside a transport (like a Landraider) then yes, he will be totally immune.

 

I dunno...it's certainly broken (but then a lot of the Daemon list is too), but the psychic test can always be failed (although you only really need to pass it once, unless you move the Inquisitor), and 'Boon' can bypass it. In 'Seize Ground' you have to move out to grab enemy-placed objectives, so you can't just camp behind a 'Sanctuary' wall of Raiders/Mystics all game.

Versus the Two Objective one, you can make it impossible for the Dameon army to win by sitting on your Oblective. All you then need to do is roll up a LR onto thier and pop Sanctuary for the insta win. Same for Seize Ground, but with more objectives.

 

Yeah, in 'Capture and Control' all you need is one Inqusitor in a Raider casting on your objective and it's game over. However, he has to pass his psychic test, which doesn't always happen.

 

And if you get annihalation, keep you entire force in the Sanctuary bubbles and snipe a few kills. No way the Daemon army can win.

 

You'll need multiple Raiders with 'Sanctuary' turned on to completely block all angles of LOS and assault, but I agree that in 'Annhilation' it's exceptionally easy to win.

- Sacred Incense: This should be a staple for any competetive Daemonhunter player (usually on a Grand Master). -1 Initiative to any engaged Chaos unit for 10 points is a godsend, and works equally well against Chaos and Daemon armies. It turns the Grand Master into a Daemon Prince killing machine.

 

Just to clarify, all Daemons that don't have either 'Aura of Aquiesence' or 'Cloud of Flies' will roll for difficult terrain and strike at I1 when charging any Grey Knight unit/vehicle with 'Sacred Hull'. 'Sacred Incense' is basically to nerf Nurgle Princes (so they strike at I4 and thus let your GM get his 'fry your brain' attack in well ahead) and Slanneshi Princes (you'll strike same time but at least the GM gets his attacks in). Against CSM Princes it's kinda redundant unless you're charging them, but I would still take it whenever you take a GM and know you're fighting Daemons.

 

- Grimoire of True Names (Against Daemons and Chaos): Halving any Daemon's weapon skill is brutal, but is especially true against Grey Knights. Now every Daemon hits on 4s and get hit on 3s ('Thirster exempted).

 

It's 0-1, so again only on GM (remember, Brother-Captain Stern has one standard). But yes, very effective when combined with a daemonhammer and 'Destroy Daemon', not to mention 'Sacred Incense'. And Skarbrand is also WS10 base, so he'll hit on 4's like a normal Bloodthirster. He grants you re-rolls to hit in combat though, so even pure Khornate armies tend to not use him.

 

- Mystics: place in a Retinue with either 3 heavy bolters, or a slimmed down support retinue next to a purgation/minipurgation squad with 2-4 psycannons. This is especially important for shooty Daemonhunter players because these squads create 14" danger zones for deepstriking Daemons. This forces most Daemon players to deepstrike further out, giving a Daemonhunter player more turns of shooting before an imminant assault.

 

Don't forget the option of sticking them in Landraiders/Crusaders ;) . I'm going to do some playtesting of a 'plasma support' retinue for my Lord soonish, because I find the heavy bolters redundant against most Daemons (when my Grey Knights already have plenty of psycannon/storm bolter to hose them down with). The extra AP2 should come in handy against those pesky Nurgle Princes/Bloodthirsters (ahh, I love having all Daemons capped at T6 maximum, makes plasma so effective).

 

- Dread Choice: Daemonhunters are really weak in terms of Anti Tank firepower, which can be compensated for with properly loaded Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders. Since you are taking Dreadnoughts, Heavy Bolter loadouts leave you weak to armor, particularly Soul Grinders when facing Daemons. If you are going to play shooty Daemonhunters, your Dreadnoughts should at least be taking a twin linked lascannon, if not a missile launcher as well (commonly referred to as "Hellfire"). Personally I like my Dreads to maintain versatility so I would equip TLLC and Dreadnought Close combat weapon with incinerator, but thats a personal preference.

 

Don't forget about his plasma cannon option. With your Landraiders you should have plenty of Mystic-guided lascannon to soften up his MC's with, but a common problem against Chaos Daemons is dealing with Plaguebearer spam. 10-14 strong units of those landing on objectives is a real chore to chew through, even with Mystic help. The Dreadnought lets you get some AP2 blasts onto them when they land (heh, can't Run until I'm done if I detect them with Mystics), and he's less suspectible to Daemonic shooting than an Inquisitor retinue (which can take a plasma cannon servitor to do the same job).

[revnow]

@Reclusiarch Darius:

 

- Yeah, sorry forgot to mention that Sacred Incense and Grimoire are 0-1 capped. My comments assume they are equipped on a Grand Master.

 

- I've actually found the Sacred Incense really useful in normal games against Chaos SM as well. This is especially true against Khorne or Slannesh focused armies. The incense semi nullifies advantages like natural I5 (MoS) and furious charge, allowing the Grand Master to kill 1/3rd to 1/2 of an MEQ squad before they even get to strike. This is especially true against terminators. Given the popularity of CSM and Daemons in 5th, Sacred Incense is a must take at 10 points.

 

- My original summation was based on the assumption that the OP played gunline style Daemonhunters, which meant Land Raiders weren't in play. But, Yes all of the above works equally well with Land Raiders for mechanized style of play.

 

- I'm not a big fan of a Plasma Cannon on a Dread simply because in a gunline DH Army that job is done better elsewhere, and against Daemons some high strength firepower is absolutely necessary to be able to take out Soulgrinders and the Dread is the only place to get it. If a player is running mechanized DH, then that job is much better done by a Godhammer.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Cool, we seem to be in total agreement :sick:

 

- I've actually found the Sacred Incense really useful in normal games against Chaos SM as well. This is especially true against Khorne or Slannesh focused armies. The incense semi nullifies advantages like natural I5 (MoS) and furious charge, allowing the Grand Master to kill 1/3rd to 1/2 of an MEQ squad before they even get to strike. This is especially true against terminators. Given the popularity of CSM and Daemons in 5th, Sacred Incense is a must take at 10 points.

 

Oh yeah, I love it too against Chaos, especially Princes. But if you know it's not going to be a CSM/Daemons army, then you could always drop it for a SS (if you haven't bought one for him already), for +1A and a nice 4+ invul in combat.

[revnow]

:sick: My loadout is Incense, SS, Hood, Mastercrafting, Grimoire if I predict a high percentage of Daemons or Prince based Chaos.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

biggrin.gif My loadout is Incense, SS, Hood, Mastercrafting, Grimoire if I predict a high percentage of Daemons or Prince based Chaos.

 

As for me, I love the following build for sheer brutalisation of Daemonic MC's;

 

Grandmaster, NFW, Daemonhammer, 'Destroy Daemon' power, Incense, Grimoire

 

Hit ahead of pretty much everything bar Slanneshi Daemons (who hit same-time or well ahead in the case of the KoS), and he stuns them if he hits them (which is pretty likely with 'Destroy Daemon' turned on), thus allowing the retinue to finish it off with NFW/TH attacks. That said, it's less flexible than your build, because the Daemonhammer just becomes a thunderhammer against mundane targets, and I don't get the +1A from a SS.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Ok, against Daemons its always gonna be a bloody game, But some things to keep in mind (and im sry if I am reiterating others before me):

 

Yea, it sucks the Aegis is no use against daemonis Gifts

 

When charging Grey Knights, All Daemons have to roll Diff. Terrain, meaning they go at Init. 1. Not so useful against Slaanesh (they count as having grenades), but against Khorne it will save your life!!

 

Psycannons and Incinerators are your friends!!

 

Destroy Daemon works, esp against the Big Baddies, but only for the one using the power.

To my knowledge, GK, SoB, and the Eldar Dire Sword of stupidity are the only Force Weapons are the only ones that bypass Eternal Warrior

 

No Deamon models are affected by "Daemonic Infestation" anymore (thats coming from the company, I e-mailed and asked)

 

On your Grand Master/Brother Capt-- Grimoire and Sacred Incense!! Grimoire only works in base to base contact, so base that Bloodthirster!! Incense effects the WHOLE combat, against ALL CHOAS, including CSM!!

 

If running Vehicle Heavy, look at giving them Sacred Hulls. Forcing a Difficult Terrain Test can keep the charge off for another turn

 

Daemonhammer rocks! STR 8 at Init 5 is gorgeous, but its cheezy to tool lists. (my opinion, and sticking to it)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

No Deamon models are affected by "Daemonic Infestation" anymore (thats coming from the company, I e-mailed and asked)

 

I think Nurglings still count as Daemon Packs for the purposes of Daemonic Infestation. Oddly enough, I got that from GW too. Still, what can you expect? :P

[number6]

No Deamon models are affected by "Daemonic Infestation" anymore (thats coming from the company, I e-mailed and asked)

 

I think Nurglings still count as Daemon Packs for the purposes of Daemonic Infestation. Oddly enough, I got that from GW too. Still, what can you expect? ;)

Daemonic Infestation has no rules that function. There is no "Sustained Attack" special scenario rule anymore. And as the BRB FAQ states, any game mechanics that rely upon rules that no longer exist are to be ignored. Daemonic Infestation is a thing of the past. Ignore it.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

another thing to tip you off (if it hasnt been stated before, i got about 1/2 thru this thread) is that demon princes dont count as demons, thats very important for thing. since they no longer have 'demonic gifts' nor demonic stature or the ability to take 50+ pts in demonic gifts (as stated in pg 20, bottom right), and they dont count as demons, only monstrous creatures, things like demonhammers and anointed weapons dont get the bonuses they use to have when fighting them. same with destroy demon and banishment psychic attacks. i would suggest giving a squad sacred incense when fighting chaos, probably terminators.

[number6]

another thing to tip you off (if it hasnt been stated before, i got about 1/2 thru this thread) is that demon princes dont count as demons, thats very important for thing. since they no longer have 'demonic gifts' nor demonic stature or the ability to take 50+ pts in demonic gifts (as stated in pg 20, bottom right), and they dont count as demons, only monstrous creatures, things like demonhammers and anointed weapons dont get the bonuses they use to have when fighting them. same with destroy demon and banishment psychic attacks. i would suggest giving a squad sacred incense when fighting chaos, probably terminators.

You are making the mistake of thinking that the DH codex has the final and exclusive authority to define what constitutes a daemon. The DH codex makes no such claim whatsoever. And nowhere in this game can it ever be assumed that one codex takes precedence over another.

 

The DH codex does NOT overrule the Chaos Daemons codex. The Chaos Daemons codex clearly states that every model in the army counts as a daemon. That would include daemon princes, of course. ;)

 

True, by the strictest RAW, the daemon princes, summoned greater daemons, and summoned lesser daemons from the CSM codex wouldn't be classified as a daemon. But any Chaos Marines player that insists upon playing the game like that doesn't deserve your respect or your time for a game. No event I've ever played in has let a Chaos Marines player get away with that.

 

Sometimes, the strict RAW is wrong. :pirate: