Nob bikers

[Zhukov]

Heya,

 

I was wondering dont we have problems with Nob bikers?

 

An awefull lot of people are complaining about them on other forums. They are probably regarded as the most OP unit at the moments. Most armies seem to have huge problems dealing with them, especially 'balanced' allcomers armies.

Personally I've not yet encountered them with my chaos. I played with them though 1 time with my mates orks against a loyalist player. Haha it was really a lot of fun. Great unit to play with ;)

 

Probably the players with double lash dont have problems against them. Bunch them up and throw as much FnP ignoring stuff at them as you have. Finish it with some assault unit. 2 nobbikers arent hard to deal with in CC.

 

But apart from the lash users, have some of you guys have problems with Nob bikers? And if not, why not?

[davidren2401]

They ain't so tough. I had my Tzeentch Prince jump into a valley on my flank and defend it Spartan style from an untouched unit of Nob Bikers. My Prince emerged on 2 wounds and all the Nobs were dead.

[Zhukov]

Well some people like to not rely on plain luck... 1 prince will never be able to hold its own against a nob biker squad according to my mathhammer, but hey who am I hu?

[Hellios]

Lash and wind of chaos.... Ahrr thanks boys your now in a nice tear drop formation.... I always wound on a 4+ so I don't care if your T10 and I hit automatically ^_^ Template so no cover save for you... also no armour saves ever... and as I read the rules that means you can't use FNP either... so I do hope you have cybork upgrade so you can take your 5+ invulnerable save. Admittedly this requires the coordination of a number of squads but you can afford them for the price of a pimped out nob biker squad.... So for example a cheap lash DP (or sorcerer if you wish >.>) and two small units of 1ksons(or 1 unit and another DP or sorcerer with Wind of chaos) with wind of chaos lash them in... drop two templates on them add some bolter shots from your sons because you never know... if they are still alive which could happen... charge them if they have nasty claws 4+ inv so meh and DP's and sorcerers strike first (some will find it easier to wound than others) you ignore armour which again leaves them with a 5+ inv they hit you with some choppas maybe you take a few wounds :S you hit them with the 1ksons (again you never know), the Power Klaw attacks then come along with the 1ksons attacks and put these on spare sons and your DP because he won't be instant killed.

 

I'm sure someone could Mathhammer something along these lines but I don't have the Ork codex with me.

 

For loyalist marines terminators with LC if you charge(maybe even if you don't) TH + SS if you don't. and vindicators or Vanguard with TH/SS or LC

 

Eldar can tar pit them with a seer council (if you spend as much points as these squads you can always deal with them) or in a small game even better just ignore them play mechanized and kill the rest of his army.

 

Necrons well you can portal out of combat (if you survive), any C'tan can help although they can go down and Oh Lord it looks like their might actually be a reason to take Pariahs!

 

Dark Eldar... Take your nob bikers... however this time you don't wan't cc with the DE shoot their transports down instead! AHAHHAAHAHAH

 

Guard... Yer I've seen guard get messed by this a few times... but they are getting a new codex... maybe until then they should take Hellhounds when fighting Orks? heh its better than nothing... or demolishers

 

Orks just be a bigger nob...

 

Daemons.. much like chaos tbh but even better in CC

 

Tau.... prey they never reach you or take farsight XD

[minigun762]

This is one of those times the Defiler and/or Vindicator really shine.

You're insta-killing the Nobs on any successful wound and dropping 2-3 pie plates on a squad will yield quite a few such wounds.

Smart players will put some of the S8 wounds on their Warboss, but even so its will thin them out.

Oddly enough the Termicide squad isn't too bad either, Melta insta-kills as well and if you have a Heavy Flamer, you're wounding 50% of them with no save allowed.

[the jeske]

there is no way your going to kill a single nob with one wind of chaos template its impossible .

 

So for example a cheap lash DP (or sorcerer if you wish >.>) and two small units of 1ksons(or 1 unit and another DP or sorcerer with Wind of chaos) with wind of chaos lash them in

now check how much they cost [and the bikers], how those units will do against other power builds out there . after that realise that orks run 2 warbosses . sure you can bombard them with an army made to kill nob bikers , but that army will suck against everything else.

 

 

As minigun said . CC them with lash . dont let them in to hth . send in sacrificial units to stop them for a turn or two . hit them with multi shot weapons or mass blast template [and by that I mean 3+]. and even then its hard to counter then one unit per turn .

[Zhukov]

Helios > I said with lash I can imagine what to do... I meant without. And the suggestions for those other armies dont all make much sense. They either are turboboosting or they are in combat. So a 3+ save. Lightning claw termies for example dont kill much, the mofos have 2 wounds and T5. Hammer termies do work though.

 

Minigun> Well termicide squads arent horrible, but 3 meltas kill if you are lucky 1 Nob (3+ cover save due to turboboosting). Killing no one at all is quite possible too. Against heavy flamer they can take 5+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. and they should be spread out so you wont be able to hit more than 3 models at once.

 

 

But dont forget: I can imagine most counters by myself (S8+ is the best way), but I am mainly wondering if people who dont use lash have problems with them?

[DevianID]

Heres the problem, competetive chaos players who dont use twin lash are simply not playing the most competetive chaos marine build.

 

If you are playing a list that you enjoy or is themed, as many do, nob biker lists are almost designed to ensure you have no fun whatsoever by countering almost everything you have. s4 AP3 1ksons? Nob bikers laugh. Noise Marine Sonic Blasters? They laugh harder. Plague Marines with 2 plasma/flamers? The Nobs are now rolling. Regular Marines? The Bikers cant breathe. Bezerkers? They have laughed so hard they have burst a blood vessel at this point.

 

All jokes aside though, without lash, abbadon becomes great, rhinos moving 12 inches to block the charge are required, and max heavy support in the form of oblits/defilers. Vindicators seem useful, but with the 24 inch range and no lash they get 1 real shot off against turbo boosting 3+ save bikers, and the armor 10 in combat means that unlike the defiler the vindicator dies to even non-pk nobs. Normally I would say that the blastmaster on noise marines are great versus nob bikers, but without lash to clump em up, the blast will only hit one model (instead of 7), who will be the warboss, so the small blast wont actually kill anything.

 

Lastly, nice big khorne termie squads with 4-5 fists and several ablative wounds, plus the full suite of heavy flamers and combi meltas, will make any nob bikers think twice, and they are also a good escort for abbadon.

[Hellios]

there is no way your going to kill a single nob with one wind of chaos template its impossible .

 

now check how much they cost [and the bikers], how those units will do against other power builds out there . after that realise that orks run 2 warbosses . sure you can bombard them with an army made to kill nob bikers , but that army will suck against everything else.

 

Ok 1st of all I was suggesting maybe using two winds of chaos + if we are not going for instant kill its number of wounds rather than number of dead nobs (although dead nobs is good)

 

Actually I've seen Eldar armies with large seer councils do well in fact I think that's one of the reason the old seer councils have been removed from the game. It has the same problem as any large point sink unit but that's neither here or there.

 

So now Daemons suck full stop now :S ok

 

No one has ever taken a unit of assault terminators and done well at anything...

 

Pariahs wouldn't automatically make your army crap either I just would prefer not to take them most of the time as they lower the armies Necron count :'(

 

Dark Eldar don't need to be tailored

 

TBH if you have a Chaplain and 5 termies and if you get a charge out of a raider (or if your BT with accept any challenge) I think you can kill off 4 or 5 and points wise they end up being around the same (raider not included), and sure they can take 2 war bosses big woop? Heh I know a guy who has 50 ork nobs on bikers (although those only all come out in Apocalypse with his evil sunz army).

 

I'm most worried about large squads and if someone wants to take two 10 man nob squads on bikes that are totally pimped out go for it, that wouldn't scare me because they now have no army.

 

Also I would like to point out a 3+ COVER save makes no difference if you use weapons that ignore cover.

 

I personally have no problems with them when I play Chaos because I have a huge amount of luck in CC with thousand sons (not helpful too everyone else) or I'm playing Eldar so its not a problem to quote SaintofVirtue after he came second in Ard'Boyz

 

"A balanced Eldar army is the second most beardy army."

[Zhukov]

Okay so its lash or actually kinda being doomed. Well thats okay, cause I'm intending to use lash for competative play from now on, but I was still wondering.

[minigun762]

Minigun> Well termicide squads arent horrible, but 3 meltas kill if you are lucky 1 Nob (3+ cover save due to turboboosting). Killing no one at all is quite possible too. Against heavy flamer they can take 5+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. and they should be spread out so you wont be able to hit more than 3 models at once.

 

Agreed, I'm not saying they're optimal, but its another use for the squad that is used very frequently.

 

Lash, specifically Dual Lash is going to give you a big bonus, there is no way around that. You can make an acceptable workaround though but it requires some more expensive units, some tailoring. You do have to remember that a Nob Biker squad with Warboss is going to run anywhere from 400-600 points, so trying to beat that with less is unrealistic to be honest.

 

1) Defilers/Vindicators for insta-death. I prefer Defilers here due to their range and the fact that WHEN they get assaulted, they'll atleast take a few Bikers with them, possibly even the Warboss with luck as I3 still hits before I1 and Power Klaws.

2) Obliterators, either hurl Plasma or LasCannon shots at them from range, then absorb the charge and hope to take out one with your Power Fist. Not optimal at all, but every little bit helps.

3) Terminators, the Power Weapons help to get rid of FnP and any kind of Armor Save, forcing them to rely on a 5++ at best. Wounding on 5's sucks, but if you start the battle with some Combi-Plasma/Melta death, it will help.

4) Wind of Chaos/Warptime TDP's. Probably one of the best choices, especially if you double them up.

No save allowed other than a 5++ maybe and you'll be wounding regardless of their enhanced T. Stack enough wounds then charge them to help finish the job. Works best if the squad is wounded.

5) Blissgiver Chaos Lords, wounding on 5's may suck, but insta-deathing anything you hit will help make up for it. You could even use the Slaaneshi mount for the +1 attack and speed bonus. Would be an average of 9 attacks on the charge, 3 wounds = 2-3 dead Nobs depending on if they have an Inv save, not horrible.

[Cornelias]

it's one of those times where you should have twin vindis in your list, pie plate them then assault with either a sorc with WoC back up by a cc unit or as minigun suggested drop in some termies ( also one of those times you should be upping this squad to 4 man with an extra combi-melta). leave the rest of your army to deal with the advancing horde.

[the jeske]

Ok 1st of all I was suggesting maybe using two winds of chaos + if we are not going for instant kill its number of wounds rather than number of dead nobs (although dead nobs is good)

if you just put wounds on them then they charge and your unit is dead . also nob bikers units are not played at 10 man , they cost too much then . its 6/7 and a warlord .

 

TBH if you have a Chaplain and 5 termies and if you get a charge out of a raider (or if your BT with accept any challenge) I think you can kill off 4 or 5 and points wise they end up being around the same (raider not included),

so first of all not in chaos as we dont have TH/SS, second of all they do cost more [LR] and third bikers are faster getting of a charge without khan maybe a bit hard to do , unless its a counter , but the it may well mean orks are already in hth . also while you pay for an HQ and non scoring termis +transport , they get a fast moving assault unit that is scoring.

Actually I've seen Eldar armies with large seer councils do well in fact I think that's one of the reason the old seer councils have been removed from the game. It has the same problem as any large point sink unit but that's neither here or there.

there is a huge difference between nob bikers and seer council . nobz are scoring , jet bikes are not [at least in the 5th]. nobs can easilly take 5/6 wounds before they lose a single model ,its harder to do with jetbikes .

 

 

 

So now Daemons suck full stop now

they dont , but they are very good against most of the game field[aka codex sm] .the main problems with them is that they are random to the extrem . as long as they get good reserv rolls they do ok , but when they get bad ones they just die .

[Cornelias]

daemons are perfect for playing against orks, provided as jeske says you get good reserve rolls and you get them on the board early enough, use them to deny the orks from charging your more expensive units.

 

think of them more as daemonic barbed wire, than a combat unit :rolleyes:

[Smadders]

Where in the Ork codex does it say that Nob Bikers have fnp? You mean feel no pain right? I can't see it anywhere, or are you talking about the 4+ cover save noxious cloud thing?

[Luigiman59]

Squads of Nobz can take Painboys, which give the whole unit Feel No Pain

[CaptKevofett]

my buddy plays loyalist marines and just recently kicked trhe crap out of some nob bikers, im sure u can chaos the same theory.

 

he had 5 termies all lightning clawed out and a chaplain for reroll hit. he killed them all on the assualt not taking a wound. im pretty sure even math hammer says that is viable.

im sure u can chaos this out.

 

mix it up with a termie lord with a demon wep and im sure u can easily have the killing power to defeat them.

 

specially if u stick them in a land raider shoot them first and then assualt, at the cost of one termie of coarse. this also givees them a little mobilty to hit other targets.

 

or just hit em up with 10 man berzerker, u should come out on top not taking to many wounds, but there feel no pain does suck.

 

just my 2 cents

[Lord Humongous]

That chaplins re-roll to hit is a HUGE help that chaos can't get, not to mention the fact that our LR's (the only way you will ever charge in most cases) only hold one less guy. But lets see what chaos can do, assuming you want to blow the points...

 

- 4x teminator champs, twin claws, icon of khorne - 8 twinlinked bolter shots, 24 lightning claw attacks = 9.88 wounds

- Kharne- will dish out ~6 wounds (1 from shooting plasma, 5 in hth) on the orcs, and one on your own guys; pray you make the save, because it happens before they go

- slaneshi lord with terminator armor and a demon weapon will dish out 2-3 wounds that each auto-kill a nob, assuming you don't roll a 1. Since he goes before the squad, there's no way to stack the auto-kill wounds. He could fire a combi-flamer or combi-plasma if you like. A little bit cheaper than Kharne for similar effect, debatably better or worse depending on what else you want the unit for.

 

Not bad, for much less than the nobs will cost. Good luck getting the charge though, and you are gambling using kharne or a demon weapon (and maybe beating some fluff). A landraider brings the whole cost up to maybe 600 points, which is on par with the nobz, and orcs have all sorts of ways to slow down the LR.

[Night Stalker]

Chaos Dreadnoughts kill them alive. For 300 points you have 12 S10 attacks in close combat - 15 if you charge. Nobz can do squat about it. They just die.

 

And Chaos Dreadnoughts sucks ... but 2 defilers are even better - 10 S10 attacks and 2 pie plates of doom.

[Zhukov]

Well some people are mentioning stuff you dont use in regular games, but it seems to me that not many people are playing against nob bikers.

[Night Stalker]

I play against nob bikers. and really - Dreads with cc weapons > Nob bikers. [With Lash Support of course. Defilers also own nobz - the one with maximal amount of attacks]. Also Dread > Warboss. But remember - Boyz > Dread.

[Morticon]

I play against nob bikers. and really - Dreads with cc weapons > Nob bikers. [With Lash Support of course. Defilers also own nobz - the one with maximal amount of attacks]. Also Dread > Warboss. But remember - Boyz > Dread.

 

I hate to play the one-up game ><; but...Dreads with CC weapons? 4 attacks yeah? 2 hitting and 1.6 wounding then with an inv. save giving a total of 1.1Nobs dead? Then your Dread gets smacked back by all those S9 powerclaws ? Sorry mate...1/2 dead nobs vs.1 dead dread = Dreads with cc weapons < Nob Bikers.

 

Yup on the warboss for sure.

 

And the defiler 5 attacks - Isnt too much better.

 

 

Lash em. Shoot em. Deny em FNP. Don't engage them with walkers.

[Muskie]

Here and especially on BoLS has caused me to rethink the army I'm supposedly painting for Astro Vancouver. I already had a Landraider in it. But my HQ choice was a bit up in the air, I thought about adding in a small Termie squad with combi-mealtas and the heavy flamer. I was thinking sorceror with the vomit template attack. All that plus the charge would give 5 or 6 Nobz a scare.

 

We play smaller point games up here, Astro is only 1500 points and most tournaments "comp heavy" so 20 Nob bikers is unlikely. I've seen small squads though and they haven't dominated me. Also I wonder about Chosen, the most versatile unit, 5 plasma or mealta guns, even combi-blah might scare the nobs some but they are quick on the bikes.

 

Terrain ie difficult/impassable terrain in abundance can also help, which damn jetbikes just ignore...

 

Of course my solution and a big painting goal ultimately is just Autocannons, lots of Autocannons... ;-)

[Night Stalker]

I play against nob bikers. and really - Dreads with cc weapons > Nob bikers. [With Lash Support of course. Defilers also own nobz - the one with maximal amount of attacks]. Also Dread > Warboss. But remember - Boyz > Dread.

 

I hate to play the one-up game ><; but...Dreads with CC weapons? 4 attacks yeah? 2 hitting and 1.6 wounding then with an inv. save giving a total of 1.1Nobs dead? Then your Dread gets smacked back by all those S9 powerclaws ? Sorry mate...1/2 dead nobs vs.1 dead dread = Dreads with cc weapons < Nob Bikers.

 

Yup on the warboss for sure.

 

And the defiler 5 attacks - Isnt too much better.

 

 

Lash em. Shoot em. Deny em FNP. Don't engage them with walkers.

 

5 attacks on charge (2.5 hits, 2.0.8 wounds, 1.38 dead - about 80 points worth of nobz) and S8 powerclaws (really they need hit on 3+, then penetrate on 5+ then destroy on 5+ ... ) . Only Warboss have S10. So Dread>Nobz

 

just use equal cost. 6 nobz with bike and inv save cost 300 points. thats = 3 dreads. And those nobz do not have powerclaws, painboy, waagh banner, scorcha, whatever.

 

Defiler have instant killing battlecannon, and 6 attacks up close. pretty neat.

[the jeske]

5 attacks on charge (2.5 hits, 2.0.8 wounds, 1.38 dead - about 80 points worth of nobz) and S8 powerclaws (really they need hit on 3+, then penetrate on 5+ then destroy on 5+ ... ) . Only Warboss have S10. So Dread>Nobz

 

wait... you are able to cordinate 3 dreads [with their random table] that have a treat range of 12" against nob bikers that have 18" treat range and waggh? and yeah while only the warboss has str 10 , there are going to be at least two other nobz with fists in that mob and they can very well hurt a dread.

 

just use equal cost. 6 nobz with bike and inv save cost 300 points. thats = 3 dreads.

yes but thats hq +scoring unit . For chaos the same would be 3 dreads and a csm/zerker/pms squad . chaos costs more [not to mention it takes 4 slots to have the same units while orks take 2].