Fully Undivided and/or Unmarked

[Hobo Willie]

After the Codex change, I've kept my army as per the fluff in the C:CSM v4. I've attempted to keep either Undivided Marks or no marks whatsoever for my army. Very little heavy support and so forth. I've taken up using more troops squads and lessening the roles of Raptors and Bikes but it doesn't feel quite as fluffy as it once did.

 

I've found that the list is very...bland. It does okay but I am finding my victories coming less often these days, as more and more armies lose their basis in fluff and seem to be just geared to win on the table. My Raptors don't provide the punch they once did and my Lord is a shadow of his pre-5th self. While my troops squads are very versatile (I love the bolter, bolt pistol and ccw), everything else just seems meh. I don't want to buy Bezerkers or Plaguemarines just to make my army hit like it used to because the Night Lords were never dedicated enough to any god. Unless their was one of fear. I'm also not repainting everything Black and Gold because that's what the codex favors.

 

After looking over this board, I don't see anyone running actual undivided lists or anything that would be considered 'fluffy' anymore. It seems like its all Lash Princes/Sorcerors with mixtures of Khorne/Nurgle cult troops and Obliterators.

 

Did any other Night Lords players try to keep true to the fluff? If so, how are you doing? I'd also be interested in the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers as they lost cultists and specialized demons respectively. Does anyone outside of the cult armies try to build fluffly armies anymore?

[Magnus Thane]

Actually i myself am not partaking in the 'min-max' hype and just making an army that suits the fluff of my warlord.

It's heavy on Termies for one. Extremely heavy. And i have no Cult Troops whatsoever.

[Hobo Willie]

I can get behind that. And I'm not whining about the codex or the min-maxers so much. I was just wondering who, again outside of the cult armies, still play their army for fluff and how do they do in most of their games.

[Cornelias]

i do pretty well with my undivided lists without including any lashHQ, zerkers/PM and i don't even use oblits that much ( certainly not in every list) last weekend for instance i played against dark angels,blood angels,GK and a tzeentch army at 1850 points and only lost against the blood angels.

 

my army list can be found here

[Darkapostle222]

I agree....its quite sad to see the death of the fluff based army. I first started playing 40k because i liked the idea of a Word Bearers themed army, but with more people playing just to win some of the fun has been taken out of it for me.

 

Of course i only started playing after the recent codex came out, but I see your point...As for Word Bearers, I see it as okay for them to use Cult troops from any god due to their extreme Zealotry and worship of all gods. Also most marks are okay...Course the lack of cultists and the unspeacialized Daemons hurt, but I think that Word Bearers can survive okay...

 

This is also very similar to what happened to the Iron Warriors with losing the extra Heavy support choice and having to use cult troops.

 

As for your issue, i'm very sorry but I can't offer much advice....I can see the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion having trouble surviving with the new codex and i wish all their players the best of luck in these dark times until Legion based codexes are created...

 

Oh...and don't repaint your guys black legion.....RESIST THE LURE OF ABBADON!!!

[Hobo Willie]

Oh I won't repaint. I like being Batman's Legion. At least according the old codex, Word Bearers could only take Undivided marks. Though I can't really disagree with you very much that they are zealous enough to become cult troops. I didn't see the Iron Warriors changing too much as they could take Bezerkers as elites, but in reality, Iron Warrior armies were very, very powerful with Obliterators as elites and four heavy support choices. Of course, people complained about the Word Bearer armies that would have some bikes turbo to the enemy and then drop a ton of daemon squads right on top of the opposing army. And people always complained about my Raptors being too powerful (That -2 to leadership was so nice).

 

I doubt there will be a Legions codex. Adds back some of the complexity for balance that I think they were trying to get rid of.

[minigun762]

Playing strictly Undivided is totally 100% viable, even competitively.

 

Undivided means less points on the frills, so more points on the bodies.

 

Raptors, CSMs, Terminators are all awesome units that don't need a mark.

All of the HQ units are usable without marks, hell the Undivided Daemon Weapon Winged Lord is a steal I'd say.

 

Plus you have access to all vehicles and Obliterators, so you're not missing out on anything from the Heavy section.

 

Both of my previous armies (Word Bearers and Iron Warriors) only used a combination of CSMs, Terminators and vehicles and I'd say they were both fluffy and competitive. Its only now that I'm going with a cult legion for the first time.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Hm, I feel sorry for you. I'm running Undivided, too, and it ain't working so well :huh:

 

My suggestion is the wonderful rule known as "counts-as." Yeah, I know you're going to hear it a lot, but hear me out.

 

Cult Troops in general: Remember that quote from Conrad Kurze or Zho Sahaal or someone? The one about Space Marines knowing no fear due to them being fear incarnate? Well, there's Fearless right there. Same goes for Icon of Chaos Glory, if you don't use it.

 

Berzerkers: Night Lords are all about terror tactics, and thus hit-and-run style attacks. Berzerkers are in a way good at this, with Furious Charge emphasizing the rapid attacks of the Night Lords, with the extra attacks and weapon skill representing an elite "commando"-type unit.

 

Noise Marines: Much of the same here, the extra Initiative could easily represent Night Lords being more effective in quick engagements. And sonic weapons? I'm sure some interesting lightning-based weapons could work.

 

Plague Marines: Honestly, no idea.

 

Thousand Sons: More of a stretch than the first two, it takes the lightning gun principle from the Noise Marines, and the 4+ Invuln... you know all that lightning on their armor? Apparantly now it's actual lightning... sort of like a mini- Iron Halo for each Marine?

 

 

Other stuff:

 

Oblits: Once again, no idea.

 

Daemon Princes: In the previous Codex, Night Lords had a fondness for using Furies. Maybe this Fury stayed alive a little too long and got a little too big?

 

Defilers: As is.

 

Summoned Greater Daemon: Much of the same idea as the DP.

 

No, it ain't perfect. I'm stuck with sort of the same situation, except with a Renegade army instead. But, hopefully it'll put a little flavor back in the game.

 

EDIT: What minigun said.

[Hobo Willie]

@I AM THE AWESOME: The "counts as" has been considered, to be honest. My buddy who plays a somewhat cheesy Eldar list suggested it. I just think it'd only work for friendly games. I'd hate explaining that these marines here are Bezerkers though they don't look like Bezerkers and these marines here are Noise Marines but, again, look just like normal CSMs. I think it'd be a nightmare with any new folk I'm playing with or even if I entered a tournament.

 

@minigun762: Yes, I could take all that stuff but it's not very Night Lord-ish to roll up with 2 Vindicators and a squad of Obliterators over Raptors and Bikes. They've always been quick strikes and semi-static armour and troops don't fit the bill. And yes, the unmarked Lord with a Daemon Weapon is decent although I still prefer Lightning Claws (have always seemed to be a Night Lords weapon of choice).

 

What I've also considered is maybe running them as a loyalist list, with my LC Lord "counts as" Shrike and modifying a squad of Raptors to be Vanguard Vets. It'll be a lot easier saying to someone that I'm using the C:SM codex than trying to explain what each unit would count as in a C:CSM list or just forgetting the fluffy side of the game altogether. Plus, I'd get to use the ultimate in quick strikes: Drop Pods.

[chillin]

Tip o' the hat for trying to stay in the fluff. Although I play BL, I make my armies to be true to my own fluff, of MY BL army.

My HQ are never anything but undivided (unmarked), and I often run no cult troops, and I do pretty well, but as you said this dex can be pretty bland when trying to play a fluffy army.

So I do run fluffy and undivided list and have a pretty good win ratio. As far as raptors go, the only thing I ever use them for is 5 man, 2 melta or 2 flammer squads. My HQ's always have wings, my troops are mostly mounted 10 man csm squads. And I take 1 or 2 hvy support in a 1500-1650 pt game. I could really paint lightning on my armor and call it a fluffy NL's army (not that I ever would :P ).

* 2 bits of advice: 1- keep mission objectives in mind (as opposed to just rushing out and trying to kill your opponents army), 2- think 1-2 turns ahead all the time.

-

I totally give you props for saying undivided as NL should be, and I say this as a bit of a fluff nazi, but I could see a fluff NL's player giving raptors IoS :o ...not to represent slanny in any way, but to somewhat represent "hit & run" from the old dex. (csm's swooping in from the sky would get the jump on footsloogers, wouldn't they), and it helps to represent the NL's "lightning raids". But that is the only icon that would not get the hairy eyeball from me, and any cult troop would pretty much make me dismiss the person as a "NL's" player.

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hopefully Nihm or some of the other experienced NL players will see this and give you some advice.

[chillin]

Of course i only started playing after the recent codex came out, but I see your point...As for Word Bearers, I see it as okay for them to use Cult troops from any god due to their extreme Zealotry and worship of all gods.

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I'll have totally disagree w/ this, WB's do not worship the gods as singular entities. They are zealots but zealots of "the word",,,worshiping chaos as a whole. Have you read much/any of the WB's fluff, IA, novels, 3.5 dex, anything that predates C:csm 4.0

[chillin]

What I've also considered is maybe running them as a loyalist list, with my LC Lord "counts as" Shrike and modifying a squad of Raptors to be Vanguard Vets. It'll be a lot easier saying to someone that I'm using the C:SM codex than trying to explain what each unit would count as in a C:CSM list or just forgetting the fluffy side of the game altogether. Plus, I'd get to use the ultimate in quick strikes: Drop Pods.

-

You would not be the 1st to try and represent a undivided chaos legion by using the s/m dex.

[Zeruel]

My Night Lords with my out flanking chosen, suddenly appearing terminators and Chaos Marine Rhino rush with Raptors has been doing very well for me, is never bland or boring with a bit of random nature to it and I find it to be quite fluffy and I never take a mark or icon other than Chaos Glory. I've actually found it's been quite interesting the amount of boots I can get on the ground too compared to many armies that take a lot of cult troops and it kind of makes my Chaos force pretty unique to most others I have seen.

[Askari]

He's right, they only worship chaos undivided. They don't fall into the worship of one god but they worship the whole pantheon. That's why they had no cult troops in the last dex.

 

And counts as really can't explain giving marks. IoS gives them the speed and agility of a chapter master, IoN makes them able to shrug off a bolter like a normal marine shrugs off a lasgun, and IoT gives them a freaking invulnerable save that counts in combat so you can't just explain it away as camo field. IoK can be justified as them being veterans but it doesn't explain why when their icon is they lose their veteran status (though I really wish chosen had 2 attacks). An cult troops are just impossible to explain without murdering fluff to try and justify it. The stat boosts they receive are the type that put some of heir skills beyond those of many cptains, chapter masters, and lords.

 

Sorry about the rant against counts as. Yes, Zeruel's hit the nail on the head. We can out number cult troops an keep points low in an army that can easily overspend and make itself weak against hordes. An all undivided army list is no less bland than an all berzerker or all plague marine or lash list.

 

With night lords you can use chosen to infiltrate, termies to deepstrike, raptors and bike for speed and mount up a bunch of basic CSM's in rhinoes. Give your lord a daemon weapon an wins an you're good to go. Iron warriors are also easy to do since they have so many more options since they have many land raiders, dreads, oblits, vindis, and defilers according to fluff.

 

Alpha legion doesn't have much besides chosen and word bearers are in the same boat with only overpriced possessed an lackluster summoned daemons.

[minigun762]

@minigun762: Yes, I could take all that stuff but it's not very Night Lord-ish to roll up with 2 Vindicators and a squad of Obliterators over Raptors and Bikes. They've always been quick strikes and semi-static armour and troops don't fit the bill. And yes, the unmarked Lord with a Daemon Weapon is decent although I still prefer Lightning Claws (have always seemed to be a Night Lords weapon of choice).

 

Oh I was just listing other units that are useful without marks.

 

Quick strikes could be based around Rhino squads, Raptors and Chosen infiltrating/Outflanking. A Defiler could be considered quick and it definitely counts as a terror weapon to me. Hell Terminators are very quick strike, doesn't get much quicker than teleporting.

 

Personally I'm very against the whole "use another codex" idea, mostly because it seems like a cop out and that you're just aiming for the special toys.

Not "you" Hobo, but people who do that. :D

[Hobo Willie]

My Night Lords with my out flanking chosen, suddenly appearing terminators and Chaos Marine Rhino rush with Raptors has been doing very well for me, is never bland or boring with a bit of random nature to it and I find it to be quite fluffy and I never take a mark or icon other than Chaos Glory. I've actually found it's been quite interesting the amount of boots I can get on the ground too compared to many armies that take a lot of cult troops and it kind of makes my Chaos force pretty unique to most others I have seen.

 

Well, good sir, I never said it was boring. I do need more Rhinos but haven't gotten around to them. Never have found a Chosen build I like. Always seem too expensive and specialized, but I'll give them another look since you're doing well with them. It is nice knowing someone is having decent luck. When the Codex first launched, I won more often but it degraded over time. I've changed strats several times trying to stay effective yet fluffy but I think due to the lack of tricks I can pull off, nearly everyone in my old gaming club figured them out. You can only build so many different lists under the restrictions. I seem to always do worse against Orks and Tyranids.

[Rain]

I really feel for Word Bearer and Night Lord players as you all got hit even worse than us Iron Warriors. I guess I use a kind of pseudo-counts as in that I have a close combat squad that I run as berzerkers, all of their khorne symbols and bunny ears are chopped or filed off but they all have a kind of rusty grungy look to them that sets them apart and as they use running legs and other zerk parts there has never been any confusion from opponents as to what they are.

 

Other than that I just use lots of normal chaos marines with melta and plasma guns, a flying daemon prince, some obliterators and usually a dakka pred or a defiler. It's really pretty spartan and I don't even use chaos glory icons but it's fun and makes me think more than if I ran a one trick pony army based around some unstoppable CC unit or pm/zerk spam or what have you.

[Hobo Willie]

Oh I was just listing other units that are useful without marks.

 

Quick strikes could be based around Rhino squads, Raptors and Chosen infiltrating/Outflanking. A Defiler could be considered quick and it definitely counts as a terror weapon to me. Hell Terminators are very quick strike, doesn't get much quicker than teleporting.

 

Personally I'm very against the whole "use another codex" idea, mostly because it seems like a cop out and that you're just aiming for the special toys.

Not "you" Hobo, but people who do that. :D

 

I'm not a huge fan of it either, to be honest. Just something I've kicked around. I would more options in that codex than I do my own.

[Askari]

I can understand nis but orks? With orks you can just take out their fast stuff from afar andfocus fire on the large mobs to reduce them to about 13-14 models then focus on another mob. when they reach combat they'll have to assault single units with two or three mobs to be able to win an if they lose they'll probably be below fearless size an if they fail they go running an never return, if they still have fearless they'll be taking fearless wounds and most likely run next turn. Our super grit makes basic CSM's great for grunt work.

 

Raptors or bikes can be given meltas or flamers to take out MC's and hordes.

[Hobo Willie]

The Ork players I play against have a *large* amount of boys that with the run rule/Waaggghhh are on me eventually. Its not a blowout by any means, as I take out a good deal of them but those powerclaws win the day for them when they get in melee. I don't have a lot of range in the force due to the lack of Heavy Support and the support weapons that fill my CSM squads. I've thrown Havoc Missile Launchers on everything that can take it and do my best but the mass assault oriented lists have given me trouble since the first time I rolled dice.

[Lord_Caerolion]

For those saying Night Lords shouldn't use Vindicators, I have one word that sums up most Night Lord strategies, and makes Vindicators fit. Overkill. Night Haunter had the view that if you utterly crush an opponent, others are less likely to go against you. As such, a heavy-hitters type list is fitting for Night Lords, not just sneaky-sneaky stealth guys.

 

Terminators, Vindicators, Defilers, stuff to freak your opponent, and just crush their units in general.

[Brother Nihm]

If you filter out the things that have had their efficiency reduced in 5th ed. the following topic contains a few ideas: How will you play night lords with the new codex

 

As for blandness, I agree with you.

All the lists that I've made so far have felt bland to an extent when compared to the enforced restrictions/bonuses of the previous edition.

 

But you can spice it up a little with count-as.

 

Personally I think that icons are decent for count-as if used in moderation.

 

Do you like having l.claws on your HQ?

Paint them up so that they look infernal and have them count-as an undivided Daemon Weapon.

 

Do you still use your Raptors primarily for CC? then go all the way and beef them up to one large squad with the IoK/IoS and support them with regular Mech CSM squads + your Lord. You can even DS any oblits/terminators down next to them for additional support.

 

Or,

 

If you want a Raptor heavy list to capture that feel, you can use Codex Blood Angels.

 

If you want you can even go with Codex Space Marines, not for the toys, but for the options that Shrike and Khan have that closely resemble the tactics of the Night Lords.

 

If you stick with no god marks/no cult troops, no oblits, no daemons, no princes, no dreadnoughts, no possessed, spawn, etc. your list of options is suddenly very small.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ah yes, the Loyalist codex works well for us. Orbital bombardments, scouts with sniper rifles, drop pods... Note to all, those are the only Loyalist toys I make use of, all others are things that existed pre-heresy, so no Storm bolters where I can help it, no infantry Plasma cannons, no Thunderfire, no Land Speeders/Raider variants.

 

Of course, I mainly want to distance myself from the "Night Lords use Raptors and Bikes! And Lightning Claws!" route, so I don't use Shrike or Khan. Still, I count my Orbital Bombardment from my "Chapter Master" as my Chapter Tactics, so it's all good. I prefer the "overkill" method of inspiring fear, rather than the "ninja" method.

[Hobo Willie]

@Lord_Caerolion: I don't mean to say Night Lords don't use Vindicators but that a fluffier list, in my opinion, would still have a limited Heavy Support. It isn't about causing fear in your opponent gaming-wise. If so, there would be nothing against dropping down two Lash Sorcerers/DPs and a slew of Plague Marines, Bezerkers, and Oblits. I've seen peoples faces when their opponent does that. I am loathe to face that, too. When I take a force, I think more along the lines of rapid strikes. Mechanized or infiltrated infantry, along with deep striking and the like. This is where the obvious choices of bikes and Raptors come in, so I don't quite understand why you would want to move away from that. Sure, you can build lists that are 'rapid strike' oriented without jump infantry and bikers but you'll need a lot more Rhinos. Vindicators are siege tanks, and I've never viewed the Night Lords as an army that sets itself up to siege works. Land Raiders are acceptable HS choices because they are a transport. Defilers are walkers with 'fleet.' I always liked dreadnoughts, too, as mobile fire platforms (and they are elites).

 

As for your use of scouts, I would almost say that they would be off limits to me if I were to use C:SM. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would have Scouts. You can say they are marines infiltrating up and causing fear with the snipers but where did their WS/BS go? Left it with their power armour? After the last codex, I have a hard time saying that they would need Scout armour to infiltrate, since they got along fine in power armour previously. Chosen certainly don't need it even in this one.

 

@Brother Nihm: I still don't like the counts as with marks and the like. It has been experimented with but for the most part I don't like the banner system anyway. Flat cost whether you have 5 or 20 marines and the fact that if you get unlucky and the banner bearer dies, the squad loses the ability outlines a poor system. If I'm going that far, it'd almost be more effective to just 'counts as' some cult troops in. But again, not a fan. Also, I've counted my LCs as a daemon weapon before and I even have a Lord with a scythe that I often use when I want to do some good old daemon weapon action.

 

In terms of my original post, I think I've had my questions mostly answered. Mixed success with straight Unmarked/Undivided lists, as I kind of suspected. Unfortunately, it is a weaker list from a codex that is best when devoid of fluff and I really only hurt myself by sticking to old ideals. Oh well, I like my Night Lords and I'll keep at them, at least until my fledgling IG army becomes awesome in a few months.

[minigun762]

In terms of my original post, I think I've had my questions mostly answered. Mixed success with straight Unmarked/Undivided lists, as I kind of suspected.

 

I personally disagree with that. I do not believe you have to have marked units to be competitive.

So many of the units in the new CSM codex are amazing buys when you keep them cheap and when you're unmarked or only Undivided, things will be cheap.

 

I could kick out a variety of lists that I believe would be strong using only those kinds of units (I have before) so I wouldn't consider your Night Lords to be second string just yet.