Fully Undivided and/or Unmarked

[Brother Nihm]

True, the problem is they'd be watered down Night Lords and therefore be the same as everyone else.

Which in fluff they are far from, that's the real issue for me personally, and the OP as well if I'm correct. :D

[minigun762]

True, the problem is they'd be watered down Night Lords and therefore be the same as everyone else.

Which in fluff they are far from, that's the real issue for me personally, and the OP as well if I'm correct. ;)

 

Agreed, it was hard coming to terms with the fact that whatever Undivided Leigon you use is really just the same as any other one other than a color scheme.

Its our own self imposed limitations or requirements that make them unique.

[Hobo Willie]

@Brother Nihm: That is completely correct. I think the last codex perfectly displayed them. Every character I had took the 'Daemonic Visage' ability. Nothing defines terror on the gaming table more than lowered leadership when your models are around. I truly feel that's the one thing I miss. That and Spiky Bits. I really liked Spiky Bits. My Night Lords were effective because my opponents were often rolling at leadership 6 or 7 after I forced a combat loss with an IC added to Raptor squads. Stealth Adept and the veteran skills were also quite nice in giving some 'pop' to squads in order to shake things up. It was nice that my choice in colors and the large amount of time I spent perfecting making little lightning bolts meant I got some unique rules in return.

 

@minigun762: I didn't say there wasn't. I did fine but without the ability to vary my troops, my [regular] opponents have plenty of time to figure out the most effective ways to counter them. Sticking to fluff, which is what I want to do, ties my hands in terms of what I can take and therefore means that over a period of time with my small amount of different units they know what to do any time they see me fielding them. My raptors are always the same +/- squad weapons. My CSMs are always the same +/- squad weapons and possible transports. My terminators/dreadnoughts are the same +/- weaponry. They have no fear that I'll show up with Marks of Nurgle or Slaanesh. They know I'm not going to spam Lash. They know they won't see Bezerkers or Obliterators.

 

I'm not saying that I lose every game. Just that it's gotten to the point that all the people I enjoy playing with know everything I can do fluffwise with my codex. Whereas they can use their entire book, I can use only a bit. And I know I do it to myself but if I just wanted to roll the dice, I could just load up Dawn of War. Only a few people I know actually stick to any specific fluff piece. And they're either Chaos or SM players anyway. And for the most part, there is fluff for them. Cult Armies, though not what they were, still function as well as they ever did. I understand that Thousand Son and Death Guard armies are stronger than ever, without forcing them to go against fluff. World Eater and Emperor's Children forces appear to be as good. I don't play any of the four, so I'm not an expert there. I know they miss some of the frills on characters, but every IC has received that treatment. The Codex was written for the Black Legion, so a player can definitely do everything they desire there.

 

I truly feel for the Alpha Legion, as I can at least field a fluffy Night Lords army. No cultists. No infiltrate. Word Bearers lost their diverse daemons. Iron Warriors can be fielded about the same as they were. Minus the option for a Basilisk, anyway. But I never ran into any with a Basilisk anyway. But all four lost veteran skills, which was where they 'evened' out with the cult armies, and how they specialized to each theme. At least in my opinion. I don't need infiltrate to win or any of the other veteran skills but it was an X factor for regular opponents.

[Spacefrisian]

It might be a strange idea but what about using the Blood Angels codex, instead of assaultmarine models you will be using Raptor models.

 

Also doesn´t Lemartes Deathmask scare opponents.

[minigun762]

Fair enough Hobo, I was misunderstanding your original point it would seem. I thought you were arguing that its not possible to build a competitive list without Marks and Cults and I belive thats false.

 

The general "blah"ing of all the Legion's and their unique rules is annoying to say the least. Something to set the original Undivided Legions apart from XYZ rengades would have been nice.

 

From my understanding, the same thing hit the new SM codex, expect in their case its that Ultramarines have done everything important in the galaxy and everyone else just wants to copy them.

 

I can't say which codex got the bigger punch to the face. It just seems that to the rest of the world, you're choices are to either play Codex: Ultramarines or Codex: Black Legion. :D

[Hobo Willie]

Well it's pretty obvious what the thoughts were behind the two codexes. Just look at the first "5th Ed" Codex to come out: Codex: Eldar. In it were rules to where you could make any of the named Craftworlds and their unique rules. Jetbikes as troops for Saim-Hann[sp], Pathfinders for Ailatoc[sp], Seer Council for Ulthwé, Wraithguard as troops for Iyanden, and Aspects as troops for Biel-tan. It's really quite nice how, minus a few nuances such as the no-show Black Guardians and such, you could build a fluffy and effective army with that Codex for anythiing. It's really a nice book.

 

So why not apply that to Codex: Chaos Space Marines! Except instead of 5 factions, there are 9 (technically 10 if you count newer renegades). And while you can build fluffy lists for the 3 of the 4 'Forgotten' Legions, they are pale shadows of what they once were.

 

Regardless, I have a new question: Twice now I've been directed to the Blood Angels Codex but when I checked online and on eBay, I could only find the 3rd edition one. And surely you aren't directing me to a ten year old Codex. I could find no mention of it on the GW site, but it was loading very slow and sometimes not at all, so I couldn't search very effectively.

[Brother Nihm]

Right!

They made it a PDF Codex, I think that's why.

 

Here's the link:

 

link

[Hobo Willie]

Assault Marines as troops!?! What! I think this was kept from me. Not that I have the amount of Raptors, but it would TOTALLY be worth it to put five 10-man Raptors on the table and see my buddies faces. LeMartez and a Captiain with LCs. SOLD! Screw building a balanced list. Everyone gets meltabombs!

[Cornelias]

death company raptors would sure be fun heh :)

[DeathsHead]

Part of the problem is that it's somewhat difficult to really capture the kind of combat ethos or military doctrine of the Night Lords with a simple rule-set geared towards a 'balanced' two player pick-up game. I know the old codex was a lot more interesting, and that the customization it provided was not just illusory, but I think it was pretty far from perfect in-of-itself.

[Hobo Willie]

Well as perfect as I think we'll get for at least 2-3 years. As far as the game is concerned, a terrifying presence definitely would be negatives to leadership. You aren't going to see a table wide affect as that would probably be a little hard to implement overall, balance-wise, although it would represent the disrupted communications and the horrible screaming they would be hearing, as well as Night Lord Rhinos showing up with still-living crucified soldiers strapped to their hulls. As far as Daemonic Visage worked, I thought it represented their presence quite well, although you had to get up close and personal to make use.

[xsuicidekingx]

I play almost exclusively a non-cult army(once in a while i throw in noise marines... cause they are fun. . Others in the thread have said it, but the less you spend on frills, the more troops you have available. I've done ok in my circle of friends with regards to winning and all that jazz.... I have beaten necron, space wolves, IG, tyranid, and dark angels. I haven;t done tournaments really, so as far as i know, I am the worst player ever.

 

I'm a pretty big rhino rush fan. I rarely, if ever take marks (once in a while i give my lord the MoK to give him an extra attack) but thats it. I have a daemon prince, but rarely give him more than warp time(I avoid the lash, cause i always feel bad using it).

 

I think a big portion of the terror aspect of the Night lords is HOW you play them. I have done things to my space wolve playing friend that discourage him to no end. I will charge you with that solitary marine that happened to be the sole survivor of a round of rapid fire. I don;t even think about it. I'll give that one kill point to you if it means holding off the shots from your troops until a unit can come back him up. This doesn't always work, but when it does, it definitely does its job.

 

I Have played entire battles with nothing at all added extra and still had fun. I play the game more on the tactical side than in the "lets throw the biggest baddest units at the opponent."

 

it can be done. thats my main point. You won't always win... but you won't always lose. I don't really care about that all the time. Some of my best games i've lost.

 

 

Edit: THat all being said, I would still love to see a full on night lords codex. I would just about pee my pants if they ever announced that.

[Zeruel]

Well, good sir, I never said it was boring. I do need more Rhinos but haven't gotten around to them. Never have found a Chosen build I like. Always seem too expensive and specialized, but I'll give them another look since you're doing well with them. It is nice knowing someone is having decent luck. When the Codex first launched, I won more often but it degraded over time. I've changed strats several times trying to stay effective yet fluffy but I think due to the lack of tricks I can pull off, nearly everyone in my old gaming club figured them out. You can only build so many different lists under the restrictions. I seem to always do worse against Orks and Tyranids.

 

I see Chosen as a slightly beefed up regular Marine squad who exchange their scoring status for the ability to out flank. I load an 8 man unit in a Rhino with 3 Melta Guns and a Power Fist Champion and leave them in reserves. They're not that pricey (a little cheaper than our standard 10 man squad builds) and they pack some nice firepower with those melta guns. With out flank I threaten a large amount of either side of the board which thus far has either made my opponent huddle more to the middle or been caught totally off guard. Keeping in mind the turn they show up their rapid fire range reaches about 27" in from the table edge (12" for Rhino move, 2" for deployment, close to an inch for their bases plus 12" range). I've also found their great at hunting units that generally stick back for fire support such as killing Imperial Guard Basilisks, Whirlwinds, Heavy Weapons squads like Havocs or Devs, Thunderfire Cannons and so on.

[the jeske]

They're not that pricey (a little cheaper than our standard 10 man squad builds) and they pack some nice firepower with those melta guns.

I can do the same with terminators for half the cost and without my opponent being able to counter them , unless he is crazy enough to load up on mystics.

[Hobo Willie]

I've been thinking it over and 'shooty' Chosen in a Rhino are an excellent idea. You have a ~30" rapid fire range from whichever table edge you enter in on (as someone already mentioned, I believe), so you'll be able to support just about anywhere on the table. I'm probably gonna try four Plasma guns first, as they provide the best all around utility (good against MEQ, MCs, and rear/side armor of most tanks) even with Gets Hot! Also, I don't have that many flamers without doing some trading or online bitz buying. Plus, with my extensive usage of Raptors, depending on where/when they come in, I might be able to support them and it wouldn't be as much of a suicide run with them.

 

And I don't see this as a fluff violation, so I'll mark that Approved! I'm painting them up now.

[Brother Nihm]

I demand pictures. :)

[Legatus]

On the subject of Night Lords terror tactics: I liked the 3.5 damonic visage rules, but I don't think it is absolutely neccessary to have such rules in a Night Lords army. A lot of the Night Lords terror tactics and their effetcs will happen outside of a Warhammer 40K game. The Night Lords approach a planet, then capture the communication centres and start broadcasting their violent audio and visuals, which will on the one hand frighten civillians and possibly armed forces, leading to panic and desertions, and on the other hand disrupt communications. All that is outside of a game of 40K. What then happens is that the Night Lords start slaughtering the civillian population (still not a game of 40K) and engage the remaining defense forces. That is the point where the game of 40K begins. The Night Lords are engaging the defense forces that have not fled. The defense forces, though they may be rattled because of the terror tactics, are now facing a specific foe, a target to shoot at, visible enemies that are shooting and assaulting them, so training and survival instinct will take over, and fear of some unknown and horrific fate become less relevant.

What the terror tactics achieved for that particular engagement is that the Night Lords have to fight fewer enemies, as there may have been desertions, the enemy may have fewer reinforcements at hand, due to disrupted global communications, and the enemy they are fighting may start the battle a little more stressed out than they usually would. Other than that, I am not sure an assaulting Night Lord will be much more terrible than an assaulting Khorne Berserker or Genestealer.

Another thing is, while such tactics may have a strong effect against human (or Tau) defense forces, who will most likely be hit unprepared for such a foe, would the Night Lords be able to consitently pull off such tactics against Orks, Craftworld Eldar or Space Marines? I don't need to mention Tyranids and Necrons I guess.

 

I think what should be more emphasized in a game of 40K would be the Night Lords favoring of quick and decicive strikes over drawn out attrition battles, which I think a higher number of fast and assault choices adequately represents. In that respect they are compareable to the Raven Guard. Some people complained about Raven Guard assault squads getting "Furious Charge" in their Index Astartes or 4th Ed Trait rules, saying that they weren't furious maniacs like Berserkers or Blood Angels. To that I responded that for them it was not representative of wild assaults, but of the training and intention to break the opponent in one decisive attack, as they would not want to have drawn out struggles. They put extra effort into the initial attack.

I play Night Lords usually with undivided Icons and Marks only, but I have recently tried a Raptor unit with the Icon of Khorne, with that same justification. They are not wild and ferrocious combat maniacs, they are just putting effort into breaking the enemy as fast as pussible, not engaging him with their armoured assault units and methodically slaughtering every last one of them or outclassing him in combat with their tougher warriors.

Or you could just see them as veteran raptors, which I guess the Night Lords of all Legions would also be entiteled to have.

[CastratedCow]

They're not that pricey (a little cheaper than our standard 10 man squad builds) and they pack some nice firepower with those melta guns.

I can do the same with terminators for half the cost and without my opponent being able to counter them , unless he is crazy enough to load up on mystics.

 

No, you can't. Your Terminators will be good for one turn and then nine times out of ten they're going to be dead. His Chosen likely won't be blown off the table in a single turn, and, if that does happen, it's because your opponent had to devote much more firepower to them than he would have had to devote to your beloved three-man suicide squad. Also (and, believe it or not, this is important for some of us players), using the Chosen in this manner is much, much fluffier than sending your most well-equipped, most veteran warriors to 100% certain death like in your method. That's the main reason I just can't see myself ever using a termicide squad.

[sexiest_hero]

I used to use havocs in my nightlords army last edition, as havocs fit them so well. First, they had the stealth adept rule, meaning they could rain death on you while you were only hitting shadows. Next they had Acute senses, meaning that you couldn't see them, but they could always see you.....Always. It was just like the Actual batman, striking out in the darkness while the bad guys shot blindly, hitting nothing. It also had the feel of the predator movie, hell I even modeled the weapons on their shoulders.

 

Now adays For my night lord army I use Havocs with plasma or melta guns, with Chosen armed the same way, and CSM...armed the same way. Night lords are, in a way, kind of easy to pull off in the Crap codex. They love to outnumber thier enemies, and cheap units of CSM backed up by, 3 units of cheap chosen, and 3 units of cheap havocs gives you room to plop down lots of bodies.

[Hobo Willie]

Other than that, I am not sure an assaulting Night Lord will be much more terrible than an assaulting Khorne Berserker or Genestealer.

Another thing is, while such tactics may have a strong effect against human (or Tau) defense forces, who will most likely be hit unprepared for such a foe, would the Night Lords be able to consitently pull off such tactics against Orks, Craftworld Eldar or Space Marines? I don't need to mention Tyranids and Necrons I guess.

 

I'd say that with the lightning playing over their armor, 'voxes' broadcasting horrible screams and roars, and decaying heads/flayed skin all over their armour is more unsettling than most things in the game. Plus, after 10,000 years and warp influence, they probably have ways to make even a Greenskin hesitate. I read a short story where they had still living Ultramarines with their armour split open and their organs displayed on the front of charging Rhinos. I'd probably say that Tyranids and Necrons are the only ones who would be immune to such psychological warfare, but in those fights, they are still Space Marines.

 

I play Night Lords usually with undivided Icons and Marks only, but I have recently tried a Raptor unit with the Icon of Khorne, with that same justification. They are not wild and ferrocious combat maniacs, they are just putting effort into breaking the enemy as fast as pussible, not engaging him with their armoured assault units and methodically slaughtering every last one of them or outclassing him in combat with their tougher warriors.

Or you could just see them as veteran raptors, which I guess the Night Lords of all Legions would also be entiteled to have.

 

I've thought about doing it for those reasons, and I even played Night Lords when they appeared to have a Khornate tie (at the very beginning of 3rd Edition, I even have my Bloodthirster but can't find my Bloodletters I used way back then). But since the Index Astartes, it just doesn't seem right even with a 'Counts As.' I still have to do a WYSIWYG modeling with it, which means my Raptors would be under an Khorne symbol. And also, unless it's a large squad, I'd rather just field another raptor or two. Besides, I think it's dumb that no one else can apparently pick up the Icon should the Icon bearer die. Not a huge fan of the Icon system anyway.

 

I demand pictures. :blink:

 

I'll probably shy away from posting them. My painting is adequate at best.

 

I used to use havocs in my nightlords army last edition, as havocs fit them so well. First, they had the stealth adept rule, meaning they could rain death on you while you were only hitting shadows. Next they had Acute senses, meaning that you couldn't see them, but they could always see you.....Always. It was just like the Actual batman, striking out in the darkness while the bad guys shot blindly, hitting nothing. It also had the feel of the predator movie, hell I even modeled the weapons on their shoulders.

 

Now adays For my night lord army I use Havocs with plasma or melta guns, with Chosen armed the same way, and CSM...armed the same way. Night lords are, in a way, kind of easy to pull off in the Crap codex. They love to outnumber thier enemies, and cheap units of CSM backed up by, 3 units of cheap chosen, and 3 units of cheap havocs gives you room to plop down lots of bodies.

 

Can't disagree with that logic, really. I just really enjoy the jump infantry. I don't think it matters what race I'm playing, if they have jump infantry or bikes, I'm taking them. In the decade I've been playing (though its off and on), I don't think I've ever played a game without at least one squad of Raptors or Bikers. Do you field a lot of Rhinos?

[the jeske]

His Chosen likely won't be blown off the table in a single turn, and, if that does happen, it's because your opponent had to devote much more firepower to them than he would have had to devote to your beloved three-man suicide squad

you must play a lot against tau . yes the termis will die [for half the cost so if two squads come, so the opponent is going to have to use double the number of counter units] , but against an [takes in breath] orks , sm [as they will run coutner units], csm [in both cases LR rush builds , lash lists ] , eldar , dark eldar and nids . the only units that may actually have problems with countering a single unit of chosen or have to divert too much of their army to be still effective are tau , necron [unless its the teleporting build , then they just move away] and sob . every other army runs counter units [that do hth] joined by HQs to counter deep strikers/outflankers and inf units . a single unit of chose dies just as easy as 3 man termis [for double the pts cost].

 

using the Chosen in this manner is much, much fluffier than sending your most well-equipped, most veteran warriors to 100% certain death like in your method.

and sending a single unsupported chosen units[vets again] to death is fluffy ?

 

 

They love to outnumber thier enemies, and cheap units of CSM backed up by, 3 units of cheap chosen, and 3 units of cheap havocs gives you room to plop down lots of bodies.

thats 2250 pts army right? not to mention it sucks in kill points missions.

[sexiest_hero]

I actually field bikes, and bring a biker lord! In a 1750 list, I use 2 cheap lords, a raptor lord and a biker lord. 2 five man havoc units 2 chosen units, 2 biker units, 4 termis, and as many CSM units as I can spam. the only tank I bring sometimes is a predator.

 

@The Jeske: Trust me you'd be surprised how many basic CSM units you can actually get on the table.

[the jeske]

by biker units and chosen units you mean glass canon ones ? minimum squad size , max load out of specials ? because there is no way you can run 3/4 troops with rhinos and 2 6 man bikes units and 2x8 chosen units and have enough pts for termis and havocks too . the problem with those units is that while they may work against noob armies that spam tacticals , they die easilly to eldar and orks . even the non tactical sm builds start being a problem as they lack the punch to [on a regular basis am not saying that they can win one time] deal with pedro or khan builds . Even the most simple chaos builds become a problem as those run enough meta to counter bigger bike units [oblits spam being one of those , combi kamikaze termis the other m warp time/lash princes being the third]. and thats just the basic chaos list . no kroot mercs doing a conga to stop infiltration and outflankers from coming too close.

[sexiest_hero]

Here is the list I sometimes use, (although mostlly I go without rhinos, this is for the point I'm trying to make.

 

1 Chaos Lord @ 160 Pts

Daemon Weapo; Bike

 

1 Chaos Lord @ 150 Pts

Daemon Weapon; Wings

 

2 Terminators @ 115 Pts

Power Weapon (x2); Combi-melta (x2)

1 Terminator Champion

Power Weapon (x1); Combi-melta (x1)

 

5 Chosen @ 115 Pts

Flamer (x4)

 

5 Chosen @ 115 Pts

Flamer; Flamer (x4);

 

5 Havocs @ 150 Pts

Meltagun (x4); Rhino

 

5 Havocs @ 150 Pts

Meltagun (x4) Rhino

 

5 Havocs @ 150 Pts

Meltagun (x4) Rhino

1

3 Bikers @ 119 Pts

Meltagun (x2);

 

3 Bikers @ 119 Pts

Meltagun (x2);

 

6 Chaos Space Marines @ 140 Pts

Plasmagun x1 Rhino

 

6 Chaos Space Marines @ 140 Pts

Plasmagun (x1); Rhino

 

5 Chaos Space Marines @ 125 Pts

Plasmagun (x1); Rhino

1

 

Total Roster Cost: 1748

 

Nob bikers will have a hard time doing what they do best, getting muti-charges off, and will be forced to chew through a rhino before getting to the meat. The melta guns instakill them and mess up the other two things they have going feel no pain and wound allocation. Eldar are a bit mor tricky, but 6 rhinos and DS termy squad will be enough to catch them, given Rhinos all pop smoke, and chosen act as bait the first turn, a lash list has no power over a mounted force. If you arnt a fan of this style, havoc, chosen and csm squads can be combined, freeing up more points while beefing up squad size. Give the list a tray against a Nob biker army, and see what 19 melta guns can do to them. I usually drop the troop rhinos for more bikers (I've been using them for years, I wouldn't advise anyone else to!)

[CastratedCow]

you must play a lot against tau . yes the termis will die [for half the cost so if two squads come, so the opponent is going to have to use double the number of counter units] , but against an [takes in breath] orks , sm [as they will run coutner units], csm [in both cases LR rush builds , lash lists ] , eldar , dark eldar and nids . the only units that may actually have problems with countering a single unit of chosen or have to divert too much of their army to be still effective are tau , necron [unless its the teleporting build , then they just move away] and sob . every other army runs counter units [that do hth] joined by HQs to counter deep strikers/outflankers and inf units . a single unit of chose dies just as easy as 3 man termis [for double the pts cost].

 

So you're telling me eight 3+ armor saves and a 11/11/10 vehicle armor get killed just as easily as three 2+/5+ armor saves?