Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Well, i really really like the idea of a named Dreadnought...very few Grey Knights actually choose to take that path and those that do must be some exceptional individuals...And the look on the face of your oponnent when you put him on the tabl... -Meet Grand Master Therios... -How cute, you named your Dread... -No...That is his actual name... Then you show him the stat line and he poops his undies... To the special ammo point, personally i would steer away from that, SM already took that concept from DW and i don't want to steal anymore from other Inquisition forces...I understand that they want to have something unique completely, and now if we ever see a DW codex they will probably have to come up with something different to keep them separate... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1920945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Well, i really really like the idea of a named Dreadnought...very few Grey Knights actually choose to take that path and those that do must be some exceptional individuals...And the look on the face of your oponnent when you put him on the tabl...-Meet Grand Master Therios... -How cute, you named your Dread... -No...That is his actual name... Then you show him the stat line and he poops his undies... That would be awesome! B) The GKs are already elite, so a guy that is kept alive to become a dread must be someone really, really, but REALLY special :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1920947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 It would be nice to have a walker that can actually take on a daemon prince in melee... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1920956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I hate to be the guy thats always screaming heretics but... You're all a bunch of heretics!!! Heresy I tell you :D But in all seriousness the GK should not get and do not need Librarians nor Chaplains. Every single one of them down to the lowliest of battle brothers is the equivalent of a librarian and a Chaplain all in one. They are all psykers and each one could spout a series of litanies that would make a chaplains head spin. To make the GK more like marines by adding these units waters them down, they are the BEST. GK are to space marines what marines are to imperial gaurdsmen. And dont get me wrong I love librarians and Chaplains (the terminator Chaplain is my favorite unit on the tabletop.) but they dont fit the GK and to force them in there makes it feel like you just want all the goodies the smurfs have. But on that notion the GK dont feel at all elite in any way in there current form when compared to vanilla marines and I understand the want for more goodies. So first it fits fluff just fine if you want to allow all the justicars and captains and such use a wide array of psychic powers, heck even a battle brother should gain a few of them. And when using psychic powers no perils of the warp check should be made cause lets face it... I'd like to see a demon invade their minds during the use of a psychic power. Demons recoil at the mere presence of a GK. For instance GK should gain the pariah trait when standing next to a demon and force some kind of morale check. They are so warded against psychic powers and demonic sorcery that aegis just doesn't cut it. Unless a seer council is trying to summon an eldritch storm in a GK's colon I don't see their psychic wards failing. All their weapons should in fact be force weapons as the name implies, not just power weapons but full on force weapons. GK hero units should be just about as expensive and nasty as possible. I can't for the life of me even see a GK captain under 200 points. A GK battle brother veteran would make many Chapter masters blush at the limited scope of their life's ordeals. So the fact that Brother Captain Stern has fewer wounds than a Cannoness is a bit on the amazing side. GK have access to the finest equipment in the imperium and their teleporters are second to none. Which translates to zip in the actual rules... which is kinda dumb. So I can see have at least 1 master crafted weapon per squad as standard. Or perhaps Justicars in artificer armor standard. GK deep strikes need to come down when you want them and where you want them, perhaps no rolling for reinforcements and half the distance of the dice on scatter. Would we pay for this... of course. All GK dreadnoughts are Venerable. Its super rare to for a GK to even become a dreadnought so when they do its a pretty big deal. Perhaps Ironclad Venys... or maybe thats wishful thinking. And to appease the chaplin people it would fit the fluff ok if perhaps one member of the squad had a role as master of litanies or some such and cost a few extra points to serve the same basic role as a chaplain. This is totally unnecessary but if you have to have it well... but they can't have skull masks or anything and look exactly like the rest of the squad. Maybe that guy got voted "it" before the battle... I dunno its hard to make work in the fluff. Of course the only serious problem here is that given all these options a GK would cost as much as a librarian cause lets face it, the whole chapter is a bunch of librarians. I can see it now, "is that your entire army dude?" "yeah I know it looks sad but they're really good!" "but you only have ten models on the field!" Everyone needs to read the fourth ultramarines book "The Killing Ground" because it shows how the GK appear to other marines. Uriel Ventris has a run in with them and even a veteran brother captain of his esteem is utterly humbled. So basically let us have access to more psychic powers and such like librarians but we certainly dont need special models for it, a GK could whoop a librarians butt. And Grey Knights are as faithful if not more so than Chaplains, there have been Chaos turned Chappys but not one GK... go figure. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Another thing - I'd like to see a reworked Daemonic Infestation rule. Then we can actually have GW give us all these anti-daemon goodies, as we won't be essentially wiping out the sales of Codex: Chaos Daemons armies. This is a problem we didn't have with the current DH codex, since Daemons weren't a stand-alone army. Now they are, and I wonder if we're going to suffer because of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You're right but i was trying to keep it a little bit real...a ten man army would really piss me off since i already own about 50 pagk and 20 termies...would make for a great apocalypse army if it were to be the way you paint the picture...I do realize that they are supposed to be THAT much more elite than regular ( if the term can be used in these circumstances ) space marines but i try not to be elitist about it. It's a game after all. To the Libby and Chappy issue ( cool comedy show name...) i didn't mean that they would actually be called that way , more like the unit would fill their function. A pseudolibrarian character , a GM or a BC who focuses more on mastering his psychic potential in ways a tad bit different than his brothers , more like augmenting the tactical situation on the battlefield than using it to smite the warp-spawned creatures...And the chap would be an extremely distuingished individual who has the honor of bearing a relic that is so sacred to the chapter that the honor of carrying to battle cannot be bestowed on a lesser man...or some such...I'm not trying to dilute GKs, i love them the way they are, i'm just hoping for more options because i would hate for the army to become a one trick pony again, where only one build would be viable for competitive play. By competitive play i mean : the oponnent does not hold back just because you're playing a sub-par army and brings the best build he can and then plays to win without consideration while at the same maintaining a level of manners etc...Just...the ball is rolling, don't screw it up GW, please...you have no excuse whatsoever...oh and the Dreadnought discussion i think was totally in line with what you pointed out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 And to appease the chaplin people it would fit the fluff ok if perhaps one member of the squad had a role as master of litanies or some such and cost a few extra points to serve the same basic role as a chaplain. This is totally unnecessary but if you have to have it well... but they can't have skull masks or anything and look exactly like the rest of the squad. Maybe that guy got voted "it" before the battle... I dunno its hard to make work in the fluff. We don't want anything more that that - by chaplain I'm just implying "the religious guy of the the team" ^_^ No skull masks for sure - a helmetless guy with a cool halo would be a ton better. And yes, GK dreads should make the SM dreads wish to really die and get buried from shame. default GK dreads should be venerable, with a higher option as character or hero. PLUS everything Dzidzilla said :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 And yes, GK dreads should make the SM dreads wish to really die and get buried from shame. default GK dreads should be venerable, with a higher option as character or hero. Quoted For Truth!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 2 NFW arms and a 2d6 MC penetration attack like the Furiouso 'Tear'. Edit: 3W, Eternal Warrior ICs. Feal No Pain as standard. Shrouding to give Stealth, or preferably be Veil of Tears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Oh and one more thing...i'm sick of every army out there having nades by default, standard marines having more attacks than GKs because they either have a bolt pistol or other additional cc weapon etc...i want either nades, or better a perpetual psychic ability that substitutes those...as STANDARD EQUIPMENT. Why the hell should Grey Knights avoid charging into cover when the last bolter-bearing bozo just shrugs his shoulders and runs in throwing frags left and right... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Oh and one more thing...i'm sick of every army out there having nades by default, standard marines having more attacks than GKs because they either have a bolt pistol or other additional cc weapon etc...i want either nades, or better a perpetual psychic ability that substitutes those...as STANDARD EQUIPMENT. Why the hell should Grey Knights avoid charging into cover when the last bolter-bearing bozo just shrugs his shoulders and runs in throwing frags left and right... QFT. I'm changing my Shrouding wish. It also acts like both offensive and defensive grenades. (So we originally had 'True Grit' and then 'Ultra Grit', did anyone coin a moniker for the new SM Honour Guard 'Grip'?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I think the honour guard get an extra attack for their banner...yeah, they seem to have bolt pistols so no special bolter use in cc...you know , they just pass the banner from one to another and take turns hitting the enemies over their heads...they call it flagellation...the banner is real heavy and has some skulls and spikes on... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I meant the upgrade from 'Ultra Grits' BP, Bolter and CCW to he Honour Guards BP, Bolter and Power Weapon (ignoring thier AA as well! :D). ;) I thought surely someone would have 'Gritted' that by now! ;) Uber Grit? Edit: Make PAGK 35 points. Give them Stubborn and Immunity to Pinning. Shrouding that gives Stealth and Offensive/Defensive Grenades. Aegis Suit as is, plus offers a 4+ Save to any 'Shooting' attack made by anything Daemon. True Grit with Storm Bolters, but them them be able to get the charge bonus. And S6 NFW that are all Power Weapons. All able to Deep Strike, and all have Heroic Intervention. Feel no Pain. Purchased Upgrades; Whole Squad able to Purchase Psycannon Bolts for the SB Jusitcar can purchase one Psychic Power. A once per game, 12" movement in the Movement Phase by localised Teleporter. Doesn't scatter. What have I missed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 sounds reasonably net-speaky... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I'm changing my Shrouding wish. It also acts like both offensive and defensive grenades. Down in the Inquisition Project, we came up with Shrouding using the 4th ed Feel No Pain rules, ie an additional flat 4+ save on top of armour/inv save that works against all shooting. What do people think of that as a reworked Shrouding? What have I missed? Don't put PAGKs above 25pts. Considering what SMs get for their 16pts, we can afford some really nice stuff for that 25pts, but it still means the Pure GK army will be able to exist with a reasonable number of models. Plus, anything that is part of the GK Special Rules and is specifically anti-daemon should be for free, since it is useless against all other armies. This would be balanced by a reworked Daemonic Infestation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Nah, just give all GK FNP. :D It's quite watered down now, and everyone seems to be getting thier own version of it. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I agree with Gentlemanloser, even if for simpicity's sake... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euradaeces Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 ... from what i gather they 1, aren't very well written 2, don't really follow the fluff too much... On the first two books I would agree to some extent, there were some lovely ideas and some great set pieces, that were let down slightly by the writing and by some poor pay offs. Hammer of Daemons (third book) on the other hand is a stunning read and evidence indeed that Mr Counter listened well to some of the advice that was given to him. If you ignore the fact that there's a GK Chaplain in it (even though we're discussing the possibilities) it's a must for GK lovers. Anywho - back on topic: I think the main thing to be held paramount when thinking about the Knights is that they are all unique. They are psykers one and all who are put through the most ardous and brutal training the Imperium has to offer (and that's saying something.) Chaplains and Librarians are fine for ordinary marine chapters, but the Knights have no need of specialised roles looking after spiritual and psychic well being. Though the idea that certain special characters could bestow similair gifts is an appealing one - A particularly firesome and vitriolic Grand Master who's rousing speeches worked even the Knights into an uncontrollable righteous fury - litanies of hate etc etc as opposed to chaplains... more character, same result :sick: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I was hoping the character we're discussing would be like that, a Chaplain without being a Chaplain...He doesn't even have to buff the knights, he can have negative effects on chaos forces in the vicinity or something along those lines.Btw, i was looking for quite some time for the exact description of what "Emperor's soulbinding" ( the process through which according to codex Grey Knights go through when they earn the honor to wear terminator suits )might encompass...Could anyone please elaborate as to what it might be? Ah, found it while i was writing this...interesting, one might wonder what will happen to those Battle Brothers who do go blind during the process...perhaps another idea for a unit? An elite choice of blind knights who see only through utilizing their psychic powers ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Ah, found it while i was writing this...interesting, one might wonder what will happen to those Battle Brothers who do go blind during the process...perhaps another idea for a unit? An elite choice of blind knights who see only through utilizing their psychic powers ? One would assume they don't go blind, since every Astropath has to go through the same Soul-Binding, and that wouldn't really mark out the GKTs for being special. What would be special is if they endured it without any permanent negative effects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 From what i've read it seems that most astropaths are indeed blind. However there is the question of biology...astropaths don't get gene-seed implants... Whatever, probably a bad idea anyway... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Dzudzilla Posted Today, 11:35 PM From what i've read it seems that most astropaths are indeed blind. Yeah, that was my point. :) Put simply, what's so special about a GKT enduring the Soul Binding if every single Astropath does it too? The difference would have to be the GKTs not being affected by the adverse effects that Astropaths get, like blindness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Hammer of Daemons (third book) on the other hand is a stunning read and evidence indeed that Mr Counter listened well to some of the advice that was given to him. Heh, my opinion is that number 3 is the worst of the series (with the first being the best), and the worst for fluffy-ness as well. It was also too much like a generic Conan/Gladiator Fantasy story for my taste. Spoiler tags for those who've yet to read Hammer. ^_^ Alaric should have killed himself trying to destroy as much of the Khorne scum in the process, rather than have justified living on and having to serve Khorne in the process. That and the seeming neccessity of having the GKs take a whopping to a man, but Alaric becoming such a better fighter after months of insane Gladitorial combat, that he could finally best both the original guy that whopped him and the Dameon that was easily able to shred another GK in the process. Plus the End... /bleh Don't put PAGKs above 25pts. Considering what SMs get for their 16pts, we can afford some really nice stuff for that 25pts, but it still means the Pure GK army will be able to exist with a reasonable number of models. I'd reduce the Justicar to the same stat line (actually, make all GK 2A base, so the same statline as the Justicar) and keep him at 35 points as well (as much as an Honour Guard, but no AA). Just give the Justicar an option to purchase a Psychich power. Oh and have all GK Psychics automatically pass all Psychic Tests, without needing to roll. That should bring us onto par with the newer Codexes.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Oh and have all GK Psychics automatically pass all Psychic Tests, without needing to roll. In that case we shouldn't have any sort of negative modifiers to people trying to counter our psychic powers. To be honest I would prefer, say, a -2 modifier to those trying to counter our psychic powers (and/or a +1 to GK units trying to counter enemy psychic powers with a psychic hood), because the threat of Perils of the Warp balances out the multitude of psychic powers without us having to pay more or up the base cost. Always passing psychic tests is really Tzeentch's hallmark, let's choose something slightly different. We're excellent psykers, but we're not masters of the warp. A little more power with a little more risk is fine by me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Great, guys! Keep it coming :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/2/#findComment-1921809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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