Spacefrisian Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 What about Nullzone that should screw any deamon based army (along with some others). It seems usefull to have in a DH army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1921811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Spacefrisian Posted Today, 01:54 PM What about Nullzone that should screw any deamon based army (along with some others). It seems usefull to have in a DH army. Nah, it's too weak. Given that GKTs are the equal of "the mightiest Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes", let's have something a bit more potent than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1921814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I actually think they should make GKT's like 80 pts each with multiple wounds and make it basically a CCW specialist librarian squad. Tell me that wouldn't be both amazingly cool and very fluffy. Sure it would be huge points to dump into an HQ retinue (500 pts for a squad wow) but just think of the monsterous thrashing a squad like that could deliver. Basically a squad who can get into CC with the Nightbringer or a Bloodthirster and walk away without a loss. But this of course would be balanced by the points and by making them very CC oriented, as in not any better at shooting than standard PAGK. A squad of these guys with the special rule to be able to charge out of deep strike would be just about the coolest thing ever. This would be my ultimate wish if I could have one. Because lets face it, a squad of GKT's are just about the most potent tactical force in all of Warhammer 40k, and I dare anyone to find something more powerful, terrifying, or effective in 40k fluff. These guys should mop the floor with almost anything in CC, and I do mean anything... The fact that Daemonettes can slay GKT's turns my stomach, they should get ruined by them. Consecrated, hexagramic infused terminator armor should turn aside those crab claws like a steel plate against a spork. I nominate them for best CC unit in the game, the psychic powers push them way over the edge past howling banshees, gene stealers, etc. Anyone disagree? I dare ya. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1921844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Only if a handful of my Deathwing can clear a whole hive of Tryanids, only losing the Librarian! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1921885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I actually think they should make GKT's like 80 pts each with multiple wounds and make it basically a CCW specialist librarian squad. Tell me that wouldn't be both amazingly cool and very fluffy. Anyone disagree? I dare ya. Yes, I disagree. It would indeed be cool and fluffy, heralding a new era of rules that reflect the fluff. It would also herald the death of the pure Grey Knight army. Seriously guys, think about game balance. What happens when we run into that new Leman Russ variant with the AP 2 cannon, or LR Demolisher? They'd earn back double their points in a single shot! We need to reflect our fluff, yes/ But we still need to tone everything down so that we can actually still have a game. Personally, I do not want to wake up and find the new codex means I can only use my full army in games of 3500pts and above. If you want rules that accurately reflect the power level in the fluff, I'm sure whoever did the Movie Marines rules can oblige. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1921913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Id like some PAGK and GKT models holding their NFW's two handed, and more characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1921923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Well, my wishlist. - they should turn the Brother Captain into a 2 wounds modell and give him and the GM a weapon skill of 6. - GKs shouldnt become cheaper, just slightly increase their abilities if they feel overpriced ( i dont think they are but others do ) - The Shrouding should be replaced with a 5+ cover safe, 4+ for GK terminators. - Psychic powers for Justicars ( perhaps just 1 predesignated, not to powerfull, one, word of the emperor perhaps ) would be neat as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzudzilla Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I wish they made a character that could kick asses of everything bar Abaddon, Marneus and guys like that with whom he would be on par... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Oh we'll probably get Justicar Alaric as an IC. And if the books are anything to go by, he'll be able to singlehandedly cream an Abaddon-Marneus tag team. Without a NFW or any GK special rules.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Oh we'll probably get Justicar Alaric as an IC. And if the books are anything to go by, he'll be able to singlehandedly cream an Abaddon-Marneus tag team. Without a NFW or any GK special rules.... Dzuzilla would be twice as happy then :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Oh we'll probably get Justicar Alaric as an IC. And if the books are anything to go by, he'll be able to singlehandedly cream an Abaddon-Marneus tag team. Without a NFW or any GK special rules.... So he's Chuck Norris... ;) I'd love some teleport FA that works. Can "re-deepstrike" each turn and assault even if they lose the stormbolter. Or possibly move 6" and "teleport-assault" 12" Possibly a stronger NFW for justicars (ie double-St à la powerfist) in order to be able to deal with Soulgrinders in CC... Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Possibly a stronger NFW for justicars (ie double-St à la powerfist) in order to be able to deal with Soulgrinders in CC... Not overly keen on this, since it seems to take out some traditional GK weakness against vehicles. How about a special rule that allows all GKs of Justicar rank and above to count their NFWs as Str 8 when in combat with a unit/character with T 5 or above? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Or possibly a rule that allows hitting against rear armour even against vehicles with a WS? I've always figured the GK's weakness should be shooting against Vehicles, and that they should kill them in CC. St 6 goes a long way VS most of rear armors and St 8 would help VS AV 13 but still leave LRs and Monoliths hard to crack... Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 boreas Posted Today, 09:19 PM I've always figured the GK's weakness should be shooting against Vehicles, and that they should kill them in CC. St 6 goes a long way VS most of rear armors and St 8 would help VS AV 13 but still leave LRs and Monoliths hard to crack... I agree with you, but with ideas being thrown around about GKs being updated to be much more mobile, and so much easier to get into CC, our weakness against vehicles will have to update to reflect that. If it's very easy to get GKs into CC, the anti-vehicle weakness will need a little tweaking. Regardless of what happens, I don't think GKs should be able to get above Str 7 in CC without having replace their NFW with something else (ie GMs and BCs only). Melta Bombs work just fine for Justicars, and for the tough nuts of Land Raiders and Monoliths, we can rely on our own vehicles for anti-armour firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 So he's Chuck Norris... I head Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked the Golden Throne and brought the Emperor back to life! :) I'd forgotten the Soulgrinder. How about giving all NFW +1d6 AP versus Daemonic Vehicles? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 How about giving all NFW +1d6 AP versus Daemonic Vehicles? Please note, this is aimed at all the people expressing this thought, not just you. You're only quoted because you were most recent. ahem... How about paying 5pts to give your justicar meltabombs, and relying a little more on shooting the 3 vehicles in the game that we can't kill in close combat with shooting! Seriously, how often do we really need to assault a Soulgrinder, Monolith, or Land Raider? And with the latter two, we can just pick up and walk away next turn. So really, we only need to worry about the Soulgrinder. Frankly, if you don't have any way to kill a Soulgrinder other than charging headlong into assault with it, you probably should not be playing Grey Knights, as this army takes a little bit less finesse than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Because shooting vehicles is so.... what all other armies do? Personnally, I'd rather get more CC against vehicles and lose the lascannons (LR or Dread). It leads to those tri-LR lists like the Water-warrior ones. Might be fun one time, but it gets old fast. With CC anti-vehicle, I have to get there. My opponent has to stop me. That is more tactics than hiding 50% of my Army list in the other 50% for over 3/4 of the game, hoping to snipe what I can with lascannons. Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Because shooting vehicles is so.... what all other armies do? Personnally, I'd rather get more CC against vehicles and lose the lascannons (LR or Dread). It leads to those tri-LR lists like the Water-warrior ones. Might be fun one time, but it gets old fast. With CC anti-vehicle, I have to get there. My opponent has to stop me. That is more tactics than hiding 50% of my Army list in the other 50% for over 3/4 of the game, hoping to snipe what I can with lascannons. I'm sorry, but no. I disagree. Rushing forward, hell-bent on nothing but charging headlong into close combat with anything that moves, is anything but strategic. Strategy is about judging your opponent and playing to his weaknesses, not letting him dictate the flow of battle and certainly not using the same tactics every game (for example, "charge!") And don't say shooting is what other armies do and then recommend using close combat to fix all your problems, as if that were somehow unique to Grey Knights. What about Blood Angels? World Eaters? Orks? Tyranids? Wytch Cults? etc... The point of Grey Knights is that we're tactically flexible, not good at just one aspect of battle over all others. If you see Soulgrinders, for the love of the Emperor don't charge them! You have the ability to back up a bit and shoot them with your lascannons, or bring in IG to melta them, or lure them onto the terrain where a melta-torpedo is coming in. Those are tactical options, as they avoid your weakness, and your enemy's strength. THAT is what it takes to play Grey Knights successfully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom James Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Id like some PAGK and GKT models holding their NFW's two handed, and more characters. I've got some older GKT models from when I first started playing which have the storm bolter built into the NFW. I like the style there, and with the new GKT models still had the ranged and CCWs built in together like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The point of Grey Knights is that we're tactically flexible, not good at just one aspect of battle over all others. I disagree. Whilst you are right about people needing to use GK Heavy Support to counter armoured units, Grey Knights are not that tactically flexible. We can adapt to deal with any enemy, yes, as can all armies, but we are not jack-of-all-trades. We do have specialsations, namely anti-daemons, close combat and short-to-mid-range anti-infantry firepower. We are good at those things over others. What that shouldn't mean is that we're incapable of dealing with anything that doesn't fit our strength. boreas Posted Today, 10:17 PM Because shooting vehicles is so.... what all other armies do? Personnally, I'd rather get more CC against vehicles and lose the lascannons (LR or Dread). It leads to those tri-LR lists like the Water-warrior ones. No, not at all. I've managed perfectly well with my all-GK army with just a single GK Dreadnought - the only Land Raider that occasionally shows up is a Crusader. And anyway, the tri-LR lits has its weaknesses - it has a low body count, particularly if it's a pure GK list. I've got some older GKT models from when I first started playing which have the storm bolter built into the NFW. I like the style there, and with the new GKT models still had the ranged and CCWs built in together like that. That would be nice, but it has sort of become the signature weapon of the Custodes, and I don't think we're likely to get it back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The point of Grey Knights is that we're tactically flexible, not good at just one aspect of battle over all others. I disagree. Whilst you are right about people needing to use GK Heavy Support to counter armoured units, Grey Knights are not that tactically flexible. We can adapt to deal with any enemy, yes, as can all armies, but we are not jack-of-all-trades. We do have specialsations, namely anti-daemons, close combat and short-to-mid-range anti-infantry firepower. We are good at those things over others. What that shouldn't mean is that we're incapable of dealing with anything that doesn't fit our strength. Okay, I'll grant that we have our inherent strengths, and anti-tank is not among them. But that's why we have ISTs with meltaguns, dreadnoughts and land raiders with lascannons, crusaders with multi-meltas, orbital strikes, and all manner of allie options. If you're limiting yourself to just footslogging grey knights, that's your own fault. Not taking weapons that are available to you is not an excuse to whine that the squads you do take aren't getting the job done. If you want anti-tank, make use of the multitude of anti-tank options available to use. Or, failing that, just take some meltabombs. I repeat, 5 points! And since soulgrinders are really the only things you need to worry about like this, meltabombs should be good enough as a 'just in case' option, even for those people who refuse to shoot tanks with anti-tank guns, just because other armies can do that too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Okay, I'll grant that we have our inherent strengths, and anti-tank is not among them. But that's why we have ISTs with meltaguns, dreadnoughts and land raiders with lascannons, crusaders with multi-meltas, orbital strikes, and all manner of allie options. Now that I can agree with. Whilst practially none of our units are jack-of-all-trades, as a whole the DH list is balanced without emphasis on a particular strength and weakness. Strength through unity, so to speak. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Or, failing that, just take some meltabombs. I repeat, 5 points! And since soulgrinders are really the only things you need to worry about like this, meltabombs should be good enough as a 'just in case' option, even for those people who refuse to shoot tanks with anti-tank guns, just because other armies can do that too. I don't "refuse" to use anti-tank guns. I refuse to use the same list all the time. Right now, a pure GK list has one option: the TL-lascannon. And whereas meltabombs are nice and usefull, I'd prefer to have something more characterful than those. I also would prefer to make away with allies. Codex: Daemonhunters should not be an add-on to Codex: IG. Oh well, I guess you're right, I want something fun, new or different and that makes me a whiner. Now, this is a wishlist thread, isn't it? Well my wish is to make away with the static and boring "water-warrior" lists. GKs have teleporters to get into the fray, not to play hide and seek. Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Yes, I disagree. It would indeed be cool and fluffy, heralding a new era of rules that reflect the fluff. It would also herald the death of the pure Grey Knight army. Seriously guys, think about game balance. What happens when we run into that new Leman Russ variant with the AP 2 cannon, or LR Demolisher? They'd earn back double their points in a single shot! We need to reflect our fluff, yes/ But we still need to tone everything down so that we can actually still have a game. Personally, I do not want to wake up and find the new codex means I can only use my full army in games of 3500pts and above. If you want rules that accurately reflect the power level in the fluff, I'm sure whoever did the Movie Marines rules can oblige. No see you didn't disagree, you said it would indeed be cool and fluffy. Making me the victor!!! Honestly that doesn't bother me since if you lose the squad your team is down so many points. Its like the Nightbringer, hes 360 points and impossible to bring down fast unless rolling just goes totally your way. I think they are fully balanced with this rule set due to such a low model count versus high point cost. Again use the Nightbringer as a template, if you're willing to dump that many points into a CC machine why not? But again it is a wishlist. Let me have my moment. Party pooper. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Id like some PAGK and GKT models holding their NFW's two handed, and more characters. I've got some older GKT models from when I first started playing which have the storm bolter built into the NFW. I like the style there, and with the new GKT models still had the ranged and CCWs built in together like that. yea, ive seen those, hoping to ebay some sometime when they're a tad cheaper, but I just ment holding NFW two-handed with Stormbolter still on arm, didnt' they retcon it so now the custodians have the Force weapon/storm bolter built in? Either way, I just wanted to be able to go with a phalanx like look. And mebbie more types of NFW besides the halberds and swords Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/163405-gk-baseless-speculation-thread/page/3/#findComment-1922501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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