GK baseless speculation thread

[Dzudzilla]

Personally, i converted my justicars so that each has a different NFW...a hammer, flail etc...it's not that hard to do...That is not to say that having the option from the get go wouldn't be appreciated...and while we're at it, plastic Gk termies with options to give them THs and storm shields...as it stands it's a fairly expensive endeavor to convert them...

[boreas]

Ok, re-reading my previous post, and too flame-like for my taste!

 

I guess, what I'm trying to put through is the concept of diversity. Right now, there is basically, no diversity to a pure GK list. Compare that with what you can do with newer codexes (Orks, SM, CSM and Eldars). I'd like to have 2 Gk lists as diverse as a white scars list is from an Pedro Drop-pod list. Of course, that nature of DH is not to be as diverse, as it is a single chapter with strict codes.

 

Yet, I find that creating new units would revive GK for most players. GW customers are modelers and collectors as well as gamers. We crave diversity. No wonder most of us have more than one army. Not only would-it be wonderful for me if I could get many units, but it would be great for my opponents too. You've got to admit that getting ready to fight a GK list is not too hard for most armies. My friends got bored of the lists I could create pretty quickly. So I added some IG until, well, it felt like I wasn't playing DHs anymore...

 

And I would prefer GK to be more diverse CC-wise. I feel that shooting is better left to others. And while we do have a lot of medium shooting on the move, we should still be the elite CC army (as opposed to mass CC hordes).

 

Sorry if my previous posts were too agressive!

 

Phil

[Dzudzilla]

Absolutely agree with Boreas...The possibility of making GK more diverse is also the reason i was so happy to hear Phil Kelly was writing the new codex, just look at what he did with Eldar...

[Aidoneus]

I heartily agree with you there. I'm actually getting bored of playing with my Grey Knights, and I can't even stand to go read people's army lists they post, as they're absolutely all the same. Some more unit options would be excellent.

 

Something like these perhaps?

[Gentlemanloser]

How about paying 5pts to give your justicar meltabombs, and relying a little more on shooting the 3 vehicles in the game that we can't kill in close combat with shooting!

 

LoL!

 

No problem being quoted. :yes: This is a wishlist though, and baseless at that.

 

5 point Meltabomb, that I can *only* use on a signle member of a Squad. For a measly one attack per round. That my GKT and BC/GK can't even use, as you can't use them in Terminator Armour.

 

No thank you.

 

Let's have *every* GK, irregardless, able to punch thorugh Daemonic armour (no Chaos Land Raiders, or Monoliths here...) with thier NFW. As standard.

 

Edit;

 

But this bit;

 

Frankly, if you don't have any way to kill a Soulgrinder other than charging headlong into assault with it, you probably should not be playing Grey Knights, as this army takes a little bit less finesse than that.

 

As Psycannons are only ever S6, and GK can't get anything stronger in shooting. You mean "You must use Godhammer Landraiders or as many Dreads as they've got Soulgrinders (Even though tactically it's usually better to tarpit 'letters with Dreads then having them obliterate your PAGK squads in CC)".

 

That's not finesse. :lol:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Let's have *every* GK, irregardless, able to punch thorugh Daemonic armour (no Chaos Land Raiders, or Monoliths here...) with thier NFW. As standard.

 

Hmm. I don't think that's likely to happen as GW won't want to turn GK v Daemons into an auto-win for the Grey Knights. We should have to at least work a little for our wins. Although, saying that, do the Daemonic Possession and Parasitic Possession upgrades still exist? I could see Grey Knights being granted the Blessed upgrade currently available to GK vehicles, either as an option or as part of the squad base cost. I guess that would work against Soulgrinders too.

[Dzudzilla]

Daemonic possesion does, it's optional for all the CSM vehicles and as standard for Defilers. Btw, how about just giving them a psychic power that can deal with vehicles?

Range 24" , 5+ or 4+ penetration, the rest a glancing hit or nothing happens and additionaly a +1 on the damage chart roll for vehicles with daemonic possesion and soulgrinders ( which basically are the definition of a daemonically posessed vehicle..)

[Drachenfell]

Hi there all.

 

I really like the suggestions on this thread. :D Though in simplifying things I'd rather go for a 4+ save vs all psychic attacks than aegis like the sisters. Then perhaps psycannon bolts as standard on GK's. Nemesis force weapons as is. Shrouding as is. And perhaps the Marneus Calgar version of combat tactics for them. Maybe keeping the difficult ground rule for daemons charging and perhaps adding onto that a rule which counts GK's as causing double their wounds in close combat against daemons in terms of determining the winner of the assault. Then lose everything else.

 

I'd actually really like to see teleportation GK's as per warp spiders too rather than the jump pack kind. afterall all those loincloths and purity seals being near air intakes can't be a good thing right? :D Plus being invulnerable to corruption and having access to the best technology in the Imperium (Read the canonical blood ravens having personal teleporter packs for commanders allowing them instant jumps on the battlefield) I don't see why we can't too.

 

Anyway that's just my two cents. I really can't wait to see some more stuff come out for the GK's and hotly awaiting the next installment of the Siege of Vraks.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Read the canonical blood ravens having personal teleporter packs for commanders allowing them instant jumps on the battlefield) I don't see why we can't too.

 

I've not seen that before. The only place I've seen them is in Dawn of War. Could you provide a source? :D

[Melissia]

The Blood Ravens are Relic's personal chapter. Dawn of War's storyline (and its sequel) is the Blood Ravens canon. While it is true that they make many adaptations for gameplay purposes, keep in mind that force commanders have consistently had teleporter packs available to them to earn throughout the series, and so I think it was intended.

 

Though in simplifying things I'd rather go for a 4+ save vs all psychic attacks than aegis like the sisters.

I don't think so. The Grey Knights should not rip things off from the Sisters and then go and say "we have this but ours is better". No, Grey Knights should not have "Shield of Faith". The Grey Knights are not Sisters, they are Space Marines.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I

don't think so. The Grey Knights should not rip things off from the Sisters and then go and say "we have this but ours is better". No, Grey Knights should not have "Shield of Faith". The Grey Knights are not Sisters, they are Space Marines.

 

Whilst I agree, Grey Knights aren't Space Marines either. They have power armour and a variation on Astartes gene-seed. That's about it.

 

To be honest, Grey Knights should never have anything approaching the Shield of Faith. They're psykers. If they had the Shield of Faith, they wouldn't be able to use their powers!

[Dzudzilla]

Whilst I agree, Grey Knights aren't Space Marines either. They have power armour and a variation on Astartes gene-seed. That's about it.

 

To be honest, Grey Knights should never have anything approaching the Shield of Faith. They're psykers. If they had the Shield of Faith, they wouldn't be able to use their powers!

 

Well, for all intents and purposes they are the Space Marine Chapter 666, there's no way around it unless you want to come up with your own fluff. The rest however is different.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Well, for all intents and purposes they are the Space Marine Chapter 666, there's no way around it unless you want to come up with your own fluff. The rest however is different.

 

That's my point though - there's no way you can compare them to the 'other' Space Marines. It would be like trying to compare Space Wolves to another Space Marine Chapter - it won't work, they''re too unique.

[Dzudzilla]

I understand , i merely pointed out that they in fact are Space Marines no matter how much we don't like hearing it ( not sure about others, i personally don't) just like Space Wolves...the fact that they don't adhere to Codex Astartes and have their own rituals etc. does not change the fact that they are Spaze Marienz...

[Drachenfell]

Read the canonical blood ravens having personal teleporter packs for commanders allowing them instant jumps on the battlefield) I don't see why we can't too.

 

I've not seen that before. The only place I've seen them is in Dawn of War. Could you provide a source?

 

Hi there Tyrak!

 

It's actually in the new Dawn of War which gives a reason why they have it. I can't quote exactly I'm afraid (Sorry :< ) but it basically states that they equip their commanders with personal teleporters due to their understanding and knowledge of the warp. Their commanders having less fear of using it constantly in a battlefield enviroment whilst other chapters do not utilise this due to the proximity they come to the warp whilst using the equipment.

 

I just feel that if that's likely to be canonical (Such as the Blood Ravens exploits becoming so in the 40k verse) that GK's being teleportation attack specialists would also have not only access to such equipment but also the gusto to use it in that capacity.

 

Sorry if I offended Mellissa. I didn't mean they'd get shield of faith. But instead of making leadership tests all the time as they do now, just make it into a easy to roll 4+ invulnerable vs psychic attacks under the Aegis special rule.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Sorry if I offended Mellissa. I didn't mean they'd get shield of faith. But instead of making leadership tests all the time as they do now, just make it into a easy to roll 4+ invulnerable vs psychic attacks under the Aegis special rule.

 

You realise that's a carbon copy of the Unguents of Warding wargear option, right? I like the Ld tests as they are, firstly because it ties into the GK's mental capabilities as a psyker, and secondly because you can combine it with more conventional methods of Imperial anti-psyker protection such as pentagrammic and hexagrammic wards (pentagrammic being represented by the Unguents of Warding, and Hexagrammic appearing in C: WH).

[Drachenfell]

Sorry if I offended Mellissa. I didn't mean they'd get shield of faith. But instead of making leadership tests all the time as they do now, just make it into a easy to roll 4+ invulnerable vs psychic attacks under the Aegis special rule.

 

You realise that's a carbon copy of the Unguents of Warding wargear option, right? I like the Ld tests as they are, firstly because it ties into the GK's mental capabilities as a psyker, and secondly because you can combine it with more conventional methods of Imperial anti-psyker protection such as pentagrammic and hexagrammic wards (pentagrammic being represented by the Unguents of Warding, and Hexagrammic appearing in C: WH).

 

Hey there Tyrak,

 

Yeah I do. Was just a thought. Though I do prefer the warding as opposed to the leadership rolls. Though doubling up with both Aegis and Unguents can be fun, I personally prefer the mechanic for the unguents of warding. But I can also see why people would like it the other way around as well. ;)

[Wrath]

Some of these are more reasonable than others, but while we're speculating baselessly, why not throw them out there?

 

1) GKGM and Inq Lords with Eternal Warrior.

2) 2 Wound GK Hero of some kind, perhaps this would be where a Chaplain or a Librarian could fit in. Either that, or upgrade HQ Brother Captains to be 2 W.

3) ISTs should be able to deep strike.

4) ISTs should have access to stormbolter special weapons.

5) Psycannon Bolts should be standard issue on all bolters in any DH army, including IST stormbolters and IST Rhino stormbolters.

6) Psycannons should be cheaper and should automatically replace all heavy bolters used in any DH army.

7) GK Dreads should have full access to GK special rules, possibly including teleporting (though that is debatable).

8) All GK infantry should be able to teleport, with GK Fast Attack Teleport squads having a sort of "blink" type of tactical teleporting capability to differentiate them from regular Troops.

9) Buy one GK for the price of two Marines (should be offset by standard Psycannon Bolts and working special abilities).

10) Add frags to all GKs.

11) Retain the Aegis defense against psychic powers, but allow it to affect all powers of any kind used against the squad (so psychic, demonic, and faith powers should any target the squad itself).

12) Change the useless instability buff to cause an automatic d6 str3 Wounds at the end of each round of combat against demons (defined as anything with "demon" or "demonic" in the name or with any upgrades with "demon" or "demonic" in the name, as well as a few other specific things like Eldar Avatars and whatnot).

13) Change Shrouding to match night fighting, or otherwise make it more reliably effective.

14) IST Veterans should give some kind of extra bonus, perhaps an extra bit of Initiative or something. As they stand now they're useless unless you want to have them carry something specific (like a tele homer).

15) Naturally, update changed wargear to match the rest of the world (Assault Cannons, Storm Shields, Bionics, etc.).

16) Allow all GK squads to upgrade NFWs to power weapons for a large point cost increase.

17) Allow all GK squads to bring one psychic power (that toasts the squad leader if a Perils roll happens), with GK Heroes being able to bring along a second, individual power (or use their Force Weapons, which ought to remain useful against high-end baddies, so ignoring Eternal Warrior).

18) Nulls. Maybe as an upgrade for IST Veterans to add protection from psychic powers to their squad at the cost of a leadership penalty.

19) GK Juggernaught Dreads, higher armor value but still having guns and such. Maybe make them do a "best of 2d6" check to see how far they can move at all times. This should do for any medium tank needs, with LRs for any heavy armor and regular Dreads remaining as the standard light armor choice.

20) Refined Ally rules with updated induction lists for IG and ally lists for SM.

21) Reword many abilities to work against Chaos generally as well as Demons, now that the CSM and Demon dexes are seperate.

22) Some kind of specialized low AP weapon to join the Psycannon and Incinerator (maybe something like a blessed lascannon or blessed plasma that would cost a lot but would ignore invulnerable saves and have a low AP value), useable only by vehicles and Purgation Squads (which would give an actual reason to take those).

23) Make Purgation Squads more efficient so that they are worth thinking about. They should be able to teleport like all GK infantry.

24) Antigravity technology, maybe in the form of lancers on hoverbikes or perhaps as something else. If anyone in the Imperium would still have access to that kind of tech it should be the GKs and the Ordo Malleus.

[Drachenfell]

Totally with you on that Wrath. Only thing I would have reservations is the anti grav stuff. I just can't really get used to Grey Knights on Jetbikes or bikes. Just wouldn't fit the image to me atleast. But who knows! Maybe that's what's in the pipe works. ;)

[Wrath]

Totally with you on that Wrath. Only thing I would have reservations is the anti grav stuff. I just can't really get used to Grey Knights on Jetbikes or bikes. Just wouldn't fit the image to me atleast. But who knows! Maybe that's what's in the pipe works. :devil:

 

That's why the antigrav stuff was last. I wanted to get a nice "holy" type of number, and 24 is better than 23 (being twice-12 and all that), so I had to come up with something. Besides, a lot of people seem to want GK Lancer units.

 

On a side note, I'm not a big fan of jump infantry. I would much prefer tactical teleporting to jump packs.

[Prathios]

The thing I would point out to Wrath is that even with an upgrade to 2w on our Captain he would still be less capable than a standard codex SM Captain. So 3w is almost a must to keep up with the Codex Creep in SM.

[Eltnot]

I play sisters, and not Grey Knights, and in fact don't think GK's should actually have a codex due to the limited amount of them, but that point is moot.

From a game balance point of view, I notice that few people have mentioned that regular PAGK's should have power weapon NFW's. I can see your reasoning, but I do see a few issues with making them so:

In an army where every guy is elite, you have to drop the average points cost comparatively to other units. this is because there are no cheap fodder to keep your expensive models alive. Example: Repentia at 20 points per model suck. Repentia bought as upgrade models to an existing unit of sisters - awesome deal.

 

Now I see no problem with doing this, but once you consider the fact that GK's will still probably be fieldable by other armies like SM, then you start to get a game balance issue. I very much doubt that the ability to field GK's in other armies will be dropped since this is one of the great facts about them. I'm not going to go out and say anyone's ideas are wrong, since this is after all a wish list, but I would keep that fact in mind. GK purist players are not going to be the only army able to use the rules provided within the codex.

 

P.S. I think the idea of GK lancers is cool regardless of how fluffy/unfluffy it might be B)

[Dzudzilla]

I play sisters, and not Grey Knights, and in fact don't think GK's should actually have a codex due to the limited amount of them, but that point is moot.

From a game balance point of view, I notice that few people have mentioned that regular PAGK's should have power weapon NFW's. I can see your reasoning, but I do see a few issues with making them so:

In an army where every guy is elite, you have to drop the average points cost comparatively to other units. this is because there are no cheap fodder to keep your expensive models alive. Example: Repentia at 20 points per model suck. Repentia bought as upgrade models to an existing unit of sisters - awesome deal.

 

Now I see no problem with doing this, but once you consider the fact that GK's will still probably be fieldable by other armies like SM, then you start to get a game balance issue. I very much doubt that the ability to field GK's in other armies will be dropped since this is one of the great facts about them. I'm not going to go out and say anyone's ideas are wrong, since this is after all a wish list, but I would keep that fact in mind. GK purist players are not going to be the only army able to use the rules provided within the codex.

 

P.S. I think the idea of GK lancers is cool regardless of how fluffy/unfluffy it might be B)

 

I honestly don't know how many there are, logic would dictate that their numbers would be very low indeed. However i've also stumbled upon a piece of info saying that there is 2000 Grey Knights so i don't know what to think...it's still a low number due to the vastness of the Imperium but more than Space Marine chapters adhering to the codex Astartes? Seriously?

To your other point, we don't know if there will still be a possibility to field them in other armies...If the possibility remains , consider this...A 5 man vanilla Vanguard squad costs 125 points, the same number of PaGK currently costs 150 points. The Vanguard are already overpriced for what they do so why should one want to pay an extra 25 points for a squad that is as easily killed but has no option to move about the battle faster , which can be achieved by purchasing said vanguard vets. jump packs for 50 pts. And the vanguard vets won't be standing around after deep striking...they will be able to assault immediately.

 

 

To the P.S. i wholeheartedly agree, but put them on Jetbikes...seriously. The technology exists, and GKs are supposed to get the best stuff...Those are the only two points that imho one needs to concern himself with. Other fluff justification? What fluff? In our current codex we have three units ( four if you count fast attack PAGK ) not counting heroes...And the fact that it's not mentioned anywhere that GK have jetbikes does not mean that they don't have them. How about Ironclads, LR redeemers, force commanders with orbital strikes, vanguard vets, sternguard vets etc...Where were those hiding?

[Gentlemanloser]

From a game balance point of view, I notice that few people have mentioned that regular PAGK's should have power weapon NFW's. I can see your reasoning, but I do see a few issues with making them so:

 

S5/I5 Bloodletters?

[Eltnot]

S5/I5 Bloodletters?

Use bullets, I find they're very effective at killing stuff....

 

I'm not trying to compare GK's to other armies, what I am say is that whatever is created will need to be balanced in a Deamon Hunters army as well as a Space Marine, Imperial Guard and Witch Hunters army.

As for the likelyhood of them being able to be allied I'd say the odds are pretty high. Ever since their conception back in the days of Rogue Trader, Grey Knights normally operate as a single squad, assisting other forces in bringing down a deamon and then "purging" the forces they just assisted to prevent deamonic contamination. There is only one case where documented where they fought in more numbers then a single squad or two at the most.