Fixing Daemonhunters

[Prathios]

4) Every Grey Knight is a psyker, albeit a low-level one. This gives them the prescience to sense incoming attacks and parry them. This translates to them not taking the extra wounds from losing combat. It makes a lot of sense.

 

Perhaps it was a mistake to make it part of their Fearless rule, since it's really a different justification. But that's just where I could fit it in. However, making it a psychic power isn't necessarily the best option either. It's not so much the result of focused psychic energies being released, as it is just that each knights psychic powers give them the barest amount of prescience, which manifests as essentially just heightened reflexes. Think Anakin Skywalker being able to podrace because of his Jedi powers. It's an ability that stems from his psychic power, to be sure, but it ain't no force lightning or other more grandiose shenanigan.

 

No, they aren't low level psykers. They are typically the most powerful psykers around. I think perhaps you mistake their lack of flare to mean they arn't powerful psykers. They simply use their huge potential to shield themselves from the powers of the warp rather than fire lightning from their hands. Just look at the GM, he can actually fire a holocaust by himself while still using his powers as a defensive barrier against Demons. That alone is grounds to compare him to the likes of the highest Librarians of any chapter of SM if not beyond.

[Aidoneus]

Yes, of course the GM is a powerful psyker. As are the BCs and the inquisitors. GKTs are a bit worse; they can use a psychic power, but need to focus the entire squad to do so. PAGKs can't even do that. So clearly the level of psychic ability diminishes as you go down the ranks.

 

Also, was there a particular point to your correction? I mean, in terms of my changes to the rules. I mean absolutely no offense (because this is something I do all the time), but it seems like you're just nit-picking at this point. That is, even if I granted you your point, would it therefore cause us to change anything about our rules updates?

[ripath]

Don't know if its been said yet but I found what would appear to be the first stats of grey knights in the Codex Imperialis. I'll just list the differences between the codex imperialis and our current codex.

_______________WS BS S T W A I LD

Grey Knight..........0 +1 0 0 0 0 +1 +1

Justicar...............+1 +2 0 0 0 0 +2 +1

Brother captain....+2 +3 +1 +1 +1 -1 +2 0

Grand Master......+3 +3 +1 +1 0 -1 +8 0

 

Also the fluff in it says that the grey Knights were "designed to fight daemonic forces in close combat" And while this is old fluff, its also the only other thing that we really have to compare and contrast against our current ruleset that has been sanctified by GW at one point.

[Eddie Orlock]

4) Every Grey Knight is a psyker, albeit a low-level one. ...

No, they aren't low level psykers. They are typically the most powerful psykers around. ...

I strongly disagree here. It's my understanding from 'classical' fluff that a large proportion of Grey Knights manifest no psychic ability what so ever, and that this lack of contact with the warp further shields them from the negative impacts of the warp.

 

Further, those that are aren't necessarily strong in terms of psychic might, but strong willed and firm in their convictions. There is a difference here, it's the difference between strength and toughness. While their related, they aren't the same.

 

I think it's a shame that the current codex doesn't make being psychic an upgrade. I would suggest that it should be possible to have a near null Grand Master who holds the office on the basis of his fighting prowess and tactical acumen, any psionic ability should be just gravy.

[ripath]

I strongly disagree here. It's my understanding from 'classical' fluff that a large proportion of Grey Knights manifest no psychic ability what so ever, and that this lack of contact with the warp further shields them from the negative impacts of the warp.

Don't mean to contradict and be a douce but unless you have something thats from before the codex imperialis and all other fluff that I know of. Grey knights are considered if not all, then most are psykers. note that Imperialis came out in 93 so that is substantially up their as a contender for our oldest fluff.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I strongly disagree here. It's my understanding from 'classical' fluff that a large proportion of Grey Knights manifest no psychic ability what so ever, and that this lack of contact with the warp further shields them from the negative impacts of the warp.

 

Older fluff does include that, and I believe Null Grey Knights too, but that was retconned in C:DH. They are now all psykers.

[Eddie Orlock]

So, I actually dug out my Codice Imperialis and Dark Millennium to review the material, to writ I'll offer the following

The Grey Knights ... and many are psychic ...

Supports the inclusion of non-psychic candidates. However, the following material modifies this:

Grey Knight Terminators in Battle

Though the Grey Knights do have Librarians like other Space Marine Chapters (though considerably more powerful) they are unusual because all the Terminators of their First Company possess a varying degree of psychic ability. ...

Non-psychic grey knights are apparently prohibited from advancing to the first company. Suppose that they may be limited to perhaps second company captain as a theoretical greatest rank. A non-terminator Grey Knight Hero?

 

I could cite an even older reference, the Yellow Rogue Trader Compilation

Grey Knight Marines are specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers. Most Knights have no psychic ability at all, and thus are relatively safe from daemonic possession. ...

Prior to the most recent codex, the material would suggest a rather conventional chapter organization short of the upper and elite echelons. Regretfully, the fluff has mutated.

[Aidoneus]

All right, given what we've seen, both from old and newer sources, can we agree that the level of psychic abilities we've given them is just about right? They're not all powerful psykers, to be sure, but in-keeping with their current codex we've given them all the very slightest of psychic boosts (being able to sense and parry attacks in melee, resulting in ignoring No Retreat). Plus, we have options for psychic Jusitcars, Heroes, and GKT.

 

We good?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Supports the inclusion of non-psychic candidates. However, the following material modifies this: . . . Non-psychic grey knights are apparently prohibited from advancing to the first company. Suppose that they may be limited to perhaps second company captain as a theoretical greatest rank. A non-terminator Grey Knight Hero?

 

C:DH page 7: ". . . the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers."

 

All Grey Knights have psychic capabilities, it's just a case of whether the rules manifest this power are offensive (choosing active powers) or purely defensive (The Aegis, Rites of Exorcism etc.).

[Eddie Orlock]

C:DH page 7: ". . . the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers."

I would suggest that this obliquely reiterates the passage from the yellow book. Of psykers that make it in only very, very, strong survive, but, most aren't psykers. It basically carves out that middle ground of warp tainted, but not warp masters, and excludes them.

[Aidoneus]

Guys! Back on topic here. This is all terribly interesting, but perhaps should be in its own thread. For the purposes of my project, can't we just say that the evidence supports the inclusion of about as much psychic power I we have included, and then move on?

[doomshroom]

so, is this project dead?

[jeffersonian000]

I wouldn't call it dead, but there have been a lot of new information from GW and FW that has either superseded some of our entries on this project, or have made them irrelevant. Examples include the recent Imperial Guard FAQ, the new FW Imperial Armour 7 book, and the two new Imperial Armour update documents.

 

We may want to look at which changes were made, reason out why, and re-examine which changes we proposed base on these new developments.

 

SJ

 

*spelling

[Aidoneus]

I disagree with Jeffersonian, actually. Those changes are not the problem, nor do I really think they affect our results at all. The biggest problem is that, once we had a good set of rules worked out, no one seemed to be willing (or able, in some cases) to play-test them. A project like this needs a pretty substantial amount of real-life trials to make sure nothing is severely over-powered (or under-powered, for that matter). So with no one actually performing those trials, we couldn't progress any farther.

 

The floor is still open to anyone who wants to share their experiences. I would absolutely love to hear stories of some trial games. Hell, even just seeing some more sample army lists made up (in the appropriate thread, which is linked-to in the first post here) would be nice. But without that, there's really nothing left to be discussed.

[jeffersonian000]

I can honestly say that I cannot get anyone to play against me using the fixed rules, nor to play GK at all using the fixed rules (I'm not the only GK player in my area, just the most dedicated). It's easier to get a game in using forge world rules in my area, as everyone is tweaking their lists for tournament play yet no one is interested in playing versus a homebrew ‘Dex. The only friendly games I can get in are versus 'Nidzilla, to which our changes have little meaning when genestealers can mob a small squad of knights to death when left in the open from a deep strike.

 

I'll see what I can do.

 

SJ

[Justicar Valius]

truely awseome and i wonder if it is balanced? must see if i can get someone to play me with this

[Eddie Orlock]

The biggest problem is that, once we had a good set of rules worked out, no one seemed to be willing (or able, in some cases) to play-test them. A project like this needs a pretty substantial amount of real-life trials to make sure nothing is severely over-powered (or under-powered, for that matter). So with no one actually performing those trials, we couldn't progress any farther.

I've found that these things are better received when they've been formated in a more 'official' manner. Some one with some publishing software could do wonders to enhance the image and thus the acceptance of the current revision.

[- 7eAL -]

I disagree with Jeffersonian, actually. Those changes are not the problem, nor do I really think they affect our results at all. The biggest problem is that, once we had a good set of rules worked out, no one seemed to be willing (or able, in some cases) to play-test them. A project like this needs a pretty substantial amount of real-life trials to make sure nothing is severely over-powered (or under-powered, for that matter). So with no one actually performing those trials, we couldn't progress any farther.

 

The floor is still open to anyone who wants to share their experiences. I would absolutely love to hear stories of some trial games. Hell, even just seeing some more sample army lists made up (in the appropriate thread, which is linked-to in the first post here) would be nice. But without that, there's really nothing left to be discussed.

Very true. You're going to make me cry. Attendance upon the fully integrated Inquisition project in HGR seems to be about rock bottom despite my return.

[Skyhawk]

The biggest problem is that, once we had a good set of rules worked out, no one seemed to be willing (or able, in some cases) to play-test them. A project like this needs a pretty substantial amount of real-life trials to make sure nothing is severely over-powered (or under-powered, for that matter). So with no one actually performing those trials, we couldn't progress any farther.

I've found that these things are better received when they've been formated in a more 'official' manner. Some one with some publishing software could do wonders to enhance the image and thus the acceptance of the current revision.

 

Great Idea! If we could "sell" the idea to players in a PDF-codex format maybe we could get some more interest.

I for one would love to play it when I could have it compiled on-hand as an armybook.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

"Daemonic Infestation: You're absolutely right in that it was forced. I was trying to think of a good way to do it without making it overpowered. I figured one squad a turn... But no, you're right. It needs to be redone. I just don't know how."

 

Easy for ya, "killed" models from SQUADS only(and maybe only troop squads as will) go into a pile, based on what squad they came from. each turn after, they return to the game via Deep striking rules, in regards to the reverse rules. BUT they, the model returning, Scatter, and MUST first return to unit choherancy(sp) before any other action may be taken (contesting objectives, running, going to ground, attacking..etc etc).

Simple.

 

yes, in turn 6 you'll have all the dead daemons returning, but, unless they roll snake eyes for the scatter, they will have no impact on the game out side of cover saves/LOS and blocked pathways...

hope you see this. think it's what your looking for. :)

[Eddie Orlock]

Did you really necro-post a year dead thread to tell us this?

 

Or, you know, pouncing on unclaimed objectives FTW!

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Was the issue of the "Daemonic Infestation: resolved?

and yes. i did. guess you have an issue with that?

[Eddie Orlock]

Was the issue of the "Daemonic Infestation: resolved?

It is expected to be resolved by a new release in the near future, and thus this became a moot point and was abandoned.

[Aidoneus]

Wow, I definitely did not expect to see this resurrected. Couple things. First, Brother Fatiswon, I honestly do appreciate your interest. It's actually pretty flattering that people even still read this, much less take an interest in it. That being said, Eddie Orlock is unfortunately correct; the thread died a year ago, and there's not much point working on it now. For one, there are rumors of a new codex coming out soon (I know, such rumors have been around for years, but these actually seem kinda legit this time). And frankly, even if no new codex were coming, we just haven't been able to get the play-testing support to make this project work. No one will play against a home-made codex, for one reason or another.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

i doubt you'll see a new GK/DH codex before the end of 2011. With the new Daemon plastics and the on line PDF update. By example, how long did they leave The blood angels in Pdf land before the latest codex was released... oh wait... just long enough for sales of Black reach/and Space wolves to start decline. IMHO.

i guess this should have be buried in with all the other crap (unbalanced, untested) in the home grown rules forum.

foolish of me to think i had anything worthy of the ORDOS INQUISTION to consider.