Question about Defilers

[Smadders]

Hey everyone,

 

Is it worth letting your Defiler keep it's heavy flamer? I'm running a Khorne Beserker army and am just making mine, I can't decide whether to go for complete close combat monster or keep the TL Heavy Flamers.

 

I think I'm definitely gonna replace the Reaper Autocannon with a close-combat arm, it's just that TL Heavy Flamer might be really useful.

 

Please help me decide! Thanks a lot.

[cathar the great]

I run two defilers with flamers and autocannon and I like them.

 

Since your army is centered on melee combat (I hazard to guess), you should rather go for the best melee setup and forget that you have this little cannon on the chest.

[chillin]

I think in a K. list I would keep the hvy flamer and replace reaper with xtra CC arm. 1 more CC arm can kill 1 more guy max. TL hvy flamer can kill as many as you can fit the template over, 5 or 6 EZ if you place the defiler and template right.

[davidren2401]

It's all about what kind of enemy the defiler will be attacking. Against marines and especially termies I would want the extra cc arm but against gaurdsmen or orks the TL heavy flamer is much better.

[Lord Humongous]

Problem I see with the heavy flamer is:

-First, you can't run (and hence use fleet) in the turn you use the flamer, so you'd have to already be pretty close to the enemy- close enough that they could be using meltaguns, 12" rapidfire plasma, 12 " rapidfire gauss, plasma pistols, etc.

-Second, the position of the heavy flamer on the model puts it back far enough that you practically have to be in base contact already to get many models under your template. So really, if you are gonna charge any distance, chances are its not helping.

-Third, while its str 5, the CCW is str 10. If you ever plan to charge a vehicle, the CCW helps a lot more.

 

That's just my impression though; if anybody has actual positive experience with the heavy flamer on the defiler, let me know.

[sonsoftaurus]

Problem I see with the heavy flamer is:

-First, you can't run (and hence use fleet) in the turn you use the flamer, so you'd have to already be pretty close to the enemy- close enough that they could be using meltaguns, 12" rapidfire plasma, 12 " rapidfire gauss, plasma pistols, etc.

-Second, the position of the heavy flamer on the model puts it back far enough that you practically have to be in base contact already to get many models under your template. So really, if you are gonna charge any distance, chances are its not helping.

-Third, while its str 5, the CCW is str 10. If you ever plan to charge a vehicle, the CCW helps a lot more.

 

That's just my impression though; if anybody has actual positive experience with the heavy flamer on the defiler, let me know.

 

Aye, verily.

 

For my WB defiler I kept it with standard loadout for looks, but for effectiveness you'd be better off with an extra CCW. I do like the autocannons for skimmer hunting, so would probably keep those instead of going all-out CCW. I think I've managed to use the HF once out of the last dozen games.

[Seahawk]

I never trade the heavy flamer except against marines. It's toasted so many models in games...easily over a couple dozen.

 

-First, you can't run (and hence use fleet) in the turn you use the flamer, so you'd have to already be pretty close to the enemy- close enough that they could be using meltaguns, 12" rapidfire plasma, 12 " rapidfire gauss, plasma pistols, etc.

Well, you're close enough to shoot, then you're likely close cnough to charge, totally negating any shooting they may have for a couple turns.

 

-Second, the position of the heavy flamer on the model puts it back far enough that you practically have to be in base contact already to get many models under your template. So really, if you are gonna charge any distance, chances are its not helping.

While yes, just give the defiler a reasonably sized base, ie one that draws a minimum circle between the points of the four legs on the ground if you have the two front ones in the air. For me, that means I can play with my front arms during the game, raising and lowering and it doesn't affect game-play. This also means you'll be placing the flame template on the base edge instead of the weapon, but there's discussion on vehicle flame weapons in the OR section.

 

-Third, while its str 5, the CCW is str 10. If you ever plan to charge a vehicle, the CCW helps a lot more.

Amen!

 

I've used a defiler a lot, and it's good for protecting flanks from weaker Outflankers, like scouts, kroot, or striking scorpions. Mine has always chased them off with heavy flamer bursts and then slaughtering in close combat.

 

Then again I magnetized my arms, so I always have all options available, which I highly suggest. Never glue when you can magnetize!

[Lord Humongous]

I never trade the heavy flamer except against marines. It's toasted so many models in games...easily over a couple dozen.

<snip>

Well, you're close enough to shoot, then you're likely close cnough to charge, totally negating any shooting they may have for a couple turns.

<snip>

 

I've used a defiler a lot, and it's good for protecting flanks from weaker Outflankers, like scouts, kroot, or striking scorpions. Mine has always chased them off with heavy flamer bursts and then slaughtering in close combat.

 

Then again I magnetized my arms, so I always have all options available, which I highly suggest. Never glue when you can magnetize!

 

Yeah, if the flamer can HIT anything, it would rock. Good to hear it can, though I'm still skeptical it's gonna happen regularly.

 

My thinking isn't that you can't charge after shooting the flamer. My thinking is that the target has to be less than 14" (and likely less than 12") away from the defiler at the start of YOUR turn for the flamer to ever come into play. That means they in all likelyhood were using shooting attacks with a 12" range... which means the defiler could well be dead. If you fleet into HtH, you never expose yourself to those 12" range guns.

As for magnitizing- yeah, always a good call. I magged mine and always used it under the old codex rules, because the Havoc Launcer seems less worth i

t. I use it under the new coded rules too, just because I don't have a CCW arm that can be mounted to the same magnet bracket. But once I sort that out, I'll likely not use the flamer any more.

[Zhukov]

If I take the defiler its mainly for the battlecanon. I'm not counting on getting him into cc (where I personally dont think hes great, because marine fist hit on 3's for example and hes only armour 12 so...). The flamer is handy to have against a lot of things out there (orks, stealers).

 

The things that I do want to assault with my defiler, ah well does the 1 attack matter that much? for me not

[the jeske]

model the flamer on one of the claws , make it longer [with a second pair of claws for example] extra range for the flamer .

[Zhukov]

Thats....just....not right :confused:

[the jeske]

also makes charging easier . you start with the leg durning the back of your depoyment and on first turn your pivot and bam first turn charge .

 

moving models are full of "options" like that.

[CastratedCow]

you start with the leg durning the back of your depoyment and on first turn your pivot and bam first turn charge .

 

<_< If that's not outright illegal to do, then at the very least it's extremely unsportsmanlike.

 

I think Seahawk's suggestion about basing your Defiler is probably the best bet if you want to use the heavy flamer. In fact, I don't think there's any situation in which I would not want to have my Defiler on a base. For such a clunky and unwieldy model, it seems almost necessary.

[Hellios]

you start with the leg durning the back of your depoyment and on first turn your pivot and bam first turn charge .

 

;) If that's not outright illegal to do, then at the very least it's extremely unsportsmanlike.

 

I think Seahawk's suggestion about basing your Defiler is probably the best bet if you want to use the heavy flamer. In fact, I don't think there's any situation in which I would not want to have my Defiler on a base. For such a clunky and unwieldy model, it seems almost necessary.

 

 

I think its like using the modified nurgling as a daemon prince... technically DP's have no requirement to be big like the old ones who took daemonic stature... It could be argued its legal but heh really iffy.

[minigun762]

I'm starting to warm up to the Heavy Flamer, simply because its pure murder to anything not in Power Armor.

 

Sure it costs a DCCW, but even 1 shot in a game can make alot of difference, effectively annihilating a squad, so I think it has potential.

[chillin]

I'm starting to warm up to the Heavy Flamer, simply because its pure murder to anything not in Power Armor.

 

With str 5 and a reroll at that, every model under that template is going to have to make a save. That's alot of potiental failed armor saves even at 3+. I onced lost 4 csm's and a wound on my lord to a reg str 4 flamer :) . Unusual to be sure, but who on this board hasn't rolled a handful of armor save dice thinking you'll probably lose one guy and are then shocked and horrorified to see all the 1's & 2's on the table.

It's not unusual for me to kill 3 MEQ's with a str 4 flamer, I can see the TL'ed hvy causing 5+. Against GS, eldar, orks, who knows ?

[the jeske]

If that's not outright illegal to do, then at the very least it's extremely unsportsmanlike.

well when one uses a sub optimal unit like a defiler then using anyting to make it better is fair game .

[Gravethrasher]

Rather interesting thread. In the last 10 games where i used a defiler with a flamer/cc I havnt used the flamer even once. If I had used cc/cc I cant really say it would of made much difference either.

 

But Ive cursed myself acouple of times for not having the reaper autocannon, when my battlecannon broke down though.

[Smadders]

Thanks for all the top advice.

 

Think I'll model it so I can magnetize it onto the end of a claw for the extra range and so I can also remove it if I don't want it for whatever reason and still have the DCCW. I'll give it a go for the first few games, if I can get just one shot off against almost anyone I feel it'll pay it's weight.

 

 

Cheers!

[Argon]

If that's not outright illegal to do, then at the very least it's extremely unsportsmanlike.

well when one uses a sub optimal unit like a defiler then using anyting to make it better is fair game .

 

With that logic you could do many things that are universally considered either illegal or uber-cheese. ;)

[Dràyhèn]

If that's not outright illegal to do, then at the very least it's extremely unsportsmanlike.

well when one uses a sub optimal unit like a defiler then using anyting to make it better is fair game .

 

With that logic you could do many things that are universally considered either illegal or uber-cheese. :D

In my opinion, the only situation where I wouldn't use every dirty trick I know is when your list is clearly more optimal and better built than your opponent's. When you can crush him easily. In my gaming group, every single trick is used to win the day. Fighting for every inch makes the game more interesting. Showing mercy is weakness :)

 

:High five:

[the jeske]

With that logic you could do many things that are universally considered either illegal or uber-cheese

am a tournament player . if someone is illegal it get reported , I lose a game , team loses a player , I lose entry cash and gas money etc . Right now there are no official rules about size of defilers [or models played in w40k without bases ] , aside the general rule that it cant be smaller then the one sold by GW . Conversions , counts as its all free game .

 

 

Showing mercy is weakness

Eastern view of the world FTW. :high five:

[MuGGzy]

I have been playing with 2 in my 2k list.

1 with ALL CCW and one with all shooty stuff (havoc/AC/etc) the shooty one has been less useful for me but the CCW is a fire magnet that hurts if it gets TO anything.

[Cale]

If you're gonna play a Defiler, play it with all close combat arms. None of the guns are more worthwhile than the extra CC attacks.

[Sloth Vicious]

I'm starting to warm up to the Heavy Flamer

 

What a terrible pun!

 

Anyway, in my Night Lords force, I've noticed that my Defiler usually doesn't end up moving too far from my deployment zone. I use a Havoc Launcher/Autocannon build for fire support.