Gene-seed...

[Dzudzilla]

Not having read any of Black Library books including Grey Knights, i wonder where the truth lies? In the codex it clearly states that it is rumoured that their gene-seed comes from the Emperor himself. However i've also encountered the opinion that it is the combined gene-seed of the heroic marines of the traitor chapters who stayed loyal during the Heresy...Any other theories? Links and sources would be very much appreciated...

[jeffersonian000]

Well, it isn't mentioned that all Grey Knight candidates are psykers, just that they all come from a very savage background. And since all Grey Knights are effectively psykers, they must have gained the ability from somewhere. Per fluff, the Emperor is the first and most powerful psyker. Taken all together, one can see that the Grey Knight gene-seed may have some influence or even an origin from the Emperor's genetic code. Another point that can be made is that the original primarchs all had a bit of the Emperor's genes as they were effectively his children, and vitually all gene-seed can be traced back to original primarchs; as such, even if the Grey Knight gene-seed is a mix, it still has some of the Emperor in it.

 

My personal feelings on the issue is that the Grey Knight gene-seed was created from the Emperor in the same manner that the original gene-seeds where created from the primarchs, thus bestowing upon the Grey Knights the abilites of a psyker without the uncontrolled factors involved with dealing with naturally occuring psykers. This may even be the same source that produces librarians; ie, the gene-seed rather than the individual.

 

But that is just my opinion.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not having read any of Black Library books including Grey Knights, i wonder where the truth lies? In the codex it clearly states that it is rumoured that their gene-seed comes from the Emperor himself. However i've also encountered the opinion that it is the combined gene-seed of the heroic marines of the traitor chapters who stayed loyal during the Heresy...Any other theories? Links and sources would be very much appreciated..

 

The implication after the events of 'Flight of the Eisenstein' (don't have it on me so can't provide a reference) is that Nathanial Garro of the Deathguard and his allies form the early Inquisition, in all likelyhood forming the first members of the Ordo Malleus. However, there is no evidence to suggest their gene-seed was used.

 

On the other hand, Codex: Daemonhunters offers us this;

 

'Legend tells that is was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret Chapter of Space Marines...whereas other Space Marine Chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to have come from the Emperor's own flesh. The Ordo Malleus was in it's infancy at this time...

 

Space Marine recruits are often drawn from feral worlds and the Grey Knights are no exception: its recruits are emergent psykers plucked from the most savage warrior cultures imaginable, where only the bravest and strongest survive...'

 

pg. 7, Codex: Daemonhunters

 

So, the only candiate put forward at this time (unless GW decides to ret-con the fluff and just make them further progency of Guilleman) is the Emperor. For this to be true, the founding of the Grey Knights must have been not long after the Emperor ascended to the Throne (in order for there to be intact DNA to create gene-seed from), which is in line with them being founded at the same time the loyalist Legions were being split into Chapters (ie the 2nd Founding).

 

Well, it isn't mentioned that all Grey Knight candidates are psykers, just that they all come from a very savage background. And since all Grey Knights are effectively psykers, they must have gained the ability from somewhere. Per fluff, the Emperor is the first and most powerful psyker. Taken all together, one can see that the Grey Knight gene-seed may have some influence or even an origin from the Emperor's genetic code. Another point that can be made is that the original primarchs all had a bit of the Emperor's genes as they were effectively his children, and vitually all gene-seed can be traced back to original primarchs; as such, even if the Grey Knight gene-seed is a mix, it still has some of the Emperor in it.

 

My personal feelings on the issue is that the Grey Knight gene-seed was created from the Emperor in the same manner that the original gene-seeds where created from the primarchs, thus bestowing upon the Grey Knights the abilites of a psyker without the uncontrolled factors involved with dealing with naturally occuring psykers. This may even be the same source that produces librarians; ie, the gene-seed rather than the individual.

 

But that is just my opinion.

 

No, it is. Each and every Grey Knight must be a psyker prior to their selection as an initiate. Not only that, but to survive the gruelling training and selection processes of the Grey Knights, they need to be exceptional warriors and unbreakable faith.

 

Therefore, the gene-seed (as far as we know) simply transforms them into Space Marines, like all gene-seed. Any particular quirks about the gene-seed itself (most likely, given the hinted source, they are soul-bound to the Emperor and thus are granted a measure of his power) are simply speculation.

[Prathios]

the honorable Reclusiarch is correct, I can find no fault with his input.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

No, it is. Each and every Grey Knight must be a psyker prior to their selection as an initiate. Not only that, but to survive the gruelling training and selection processes of the Grey Knights, they need to be exceptional warriors and unbreakable faith.

 

Absolutely. "the Grey Knights are screened to exclude all but the most potent psykers", C: DH p7.

[xa0s]

The implication after the events of 'Flight of the Eisenstein' (don't have it on me so can't provide a reference) is that Nathanial Garro of the Deathguard and his allies form the early Inquisition, in all likelyhood forming the first members of the Ordo Malleus. However, there is no evidence to suggest their gene-seed was used.

 

I'm thinking of "Half-Heard" dude, too.

[Dzudzilla]

Thanks for the replies, i think it's time i placed a big order with Black Library...

[Verythrax Draconis]

Maybe it's acceptable to consider that those "inquisitive" Marines mentioned at Flight of Eisenstein formed a founding nucleus for the GKs - organized and decided how such chapter should work, under direct supervision/following the decision of the Emperor himself.

 

That would makes sense, since the GKs occupies a seat of their own in the Inquisition conclave, and marines presence inside the structure/chain of command of the Ordos is unheard of.

[Prathios]

I'm thinking of "Half-Heard" dude, too.

 

I believe you refer to Iacton Cruz, who ended up being, ironically, more heard than most.

 

and @ Verythrax Draconis

Marine presence inside the structure/chain of command of the Ordos... well apparently its not... and by a Death Guard no less. I actually thought Flight of the Eisenstien was one of the most gripping and well thought out books in the black libraries history. Amazing stuff indeed.

[Verythrax Draconis]

and @ Verythrax Draconis

Marine presence inside the structure/chain of command of the Ordos... well apparently its not... and by a Death Guard no less. I actually thought Flight of the Eisenstien was one of the most gripping and well thought out books in the black libraries history. Amazing stuff indeed.

 

So, it means you agree with me? :P

[SoulReaver296]

i personally like the idea of the grey knights having a seperate primarch (either one of the two lost or a secret one), JUST so i can use a true scale GK with badass rules and gear leading my apocalypse forces (for friendly games)

[Prathios]

So, it means you agree with me? :devil:

 

I actually thought that the Eisenstein survivors were the founding members of the inquisition, or at least thats what I got from it. I had this mental image of a big bad death guard space marine pulling out a an inquisitorial rosette and freaking out a whole planet. To me I think it makes a lot of sense that it was founded in this manner and still makes sense that there are no marines since then, since after all there is no reason for any other marines to join or even to really know about it.

 

Founded by a marine, run by man... works for me.

 

I think that they probably did have a very heavy hand in the organization and founding of the GK as well. Though I think the emperor himself likely also got personally involved. (he was the greatest precog of all time so he likely had the ball rolling before anyone knew.)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Verythrax Draconis Posted Today, 12:23 PM

Maybe it's acceptable to consider that those "inquisitive" Marines mentioned at Flight of Eisenstein formed a founding nucleus for the GKs - organized and decided how such chapter should work, under direct supervision/following the decision of the Emperor himself.

 

There is a major thread on this in the Horus Heresy forum. Suffice to say, it's an even bigger leap of faith than saying Garro founded the Inquistion.

[Melissia]

Going from this quote above:

Legend tells that is was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret Chapter of Space Marines...whereas other Space Marine Chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to have come from the Emperor's own flesh. The Ordo Malleus was in it's infancy at this time.

While the surviving members of the Death Guard loyalists may have started the Ordo Malleus (or had a strong hand in forming it anyway), they did not supply the Grey Knights with their gene-seed. The Grey Knights were created after the Inquisition, using the Emperor's genetic information.

 

This is the only reaonsable answer I can find.

[Verythrax Draconis]

About Melissia's and Tyrak's posts:

Well, I think nobody even considered that GKs used even a single cell of the DG loyalists, I just implied they would had being involved on it on supervising roles. If I sounded somewhat like this I apologize. If I really misunderstood you both, I apologize again ^_^

 

Tyrak, can you get me a link for that thread?

[Prathios]

@ Tyrak

 

I dont think it is a huge leap of faith. I think its a fairly straightforward logical conclusion given the conclusion of the book. If not the =I= then at least the OM. But since we don't know I suppose we will have to wait for another book.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I dont think it is a huge leap of faith. I think its a fairly straightforward logical conclusion given the conclusion of the book. If not the =I= then at least the OM.

 

From the book, yes, it's fairly reasonable to assume they have a hand in the Inquisition. BUT, there is another story of how the Inquisition was founded, in the Thorian Sourcebook. Since Garro's story isn't explicit, it's debatable whether this is a retcon, and if so which story to believe.

 

Well, I think nobody even considered that GKs used even a single cell of the DG loyalists, I just implied they would had being involved on it on supervising roles.

 

That's ok, but plenty out there do, in the very thread I mentioned - here it is: Link along with speculation that Loken comes back, kills Horus to save the Emperor, and goes on to found the Grey Knights.

Oh, and another one with yet more speculation that the Grey Knights are a Missing Legion, along with the Custodes and the Children of Chuck Norris.

 

You can see why I reacted to your statement. ;) To be honest, you idea of supervisory roles is probably the most likely I've seen to date, but for the fact that it's the Horus Heresy - ALL the survivors are expert Chaos fighters.

[Verythrax Draconis]

200% fair ;)

 

On a completely unrelated note:

 

... and the Children of Chuck Norris.

 

Logo and color scheme, please ;)

 

EDIT: Thanks a lot for the Thorian Sourcebook link, I really wanted to take a look a t this. But now I'm doing this, sorry but it looks like a lot of nonsense - it's very poorly written, the facts are not that believable in a 40k context and its written by Gav Thorpe...

 

But ok, like you said, we don't know how far a text overrides another, we don't even know if any of those can be considered canon. so I'll give the benefit of doubt.

 

But even if that 4-person conclave really happened, I don't see why those 2 guys that stayed on Terra couldn't be the ones that wanted the loyalist DGs at their side to make the things happen, what could easily put the two stories together ;)

[Prathios]

For the record I usually think that Codex trumps fluff if its hard fact and well explained in all but one case. That one case is the Horus Heresy novels. I think they are very well written, extremely entertaining and feel like they are taken right out of history. So for my fluff rules the HH books are definitive. I think that the Thorian text is much like Verythrax says. I think the HH stuff is better written and planned out, so they take precedent.

 

And so you know where I'm coming from; I used to post all the time on Alvero's comic book boards and I would argue non stop on the battle board on various things and if you want to see arguments on what is and what isn't canon you haven't seen anything till you argue points with a bunch of comic nerds. We all have our own unique versions of what should and shouldn't be the "truth." 40k is pretty bad on this point but when you have 400 issues of Thor to try and fit into a neat package of continuity... well... not so much.

 

So over the years I've developed a pretty fair and objective approach to this stuff and I think it works out pretty well. I don't fanboy out 95% of the time on anything and I think I put weight where it belongs in regards to Codex vs Black Library vs other errata.

 

So on that point, out of curiosity how do you guys weigh your fluff?

[SoulReaver296]

*awaiting Goto and Counter rants*

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So on that point, out of curiosity how do you guys weigh your fluff?

 

Codex trumps. Only a plain, unequivocal and direct statement from another source stated as being intended as a Studio retcon (e.g the HH series) would trump that. Plenty of things can elaborate on the gaps, and I weigh those based on how they fit into existing fluff, the author(s)'s tendency to follow existing fluff (Dan Abnett and Forgeworld get top marks here, Ben Counter gets the dunce's cap ;) ), and how much of a 'conspiracy theory' they seem to be.

 

 

 

and the Children of Chuck Norris.

Logo and color scheme, please :D

 

Unknown, I'm afraid. Apparently one of the Lost Legions, they are believed to have been lost to a man down the back of the Imperial Sofa. Adeptus Custodes have been dispatched to investigate.

 

:P

[Verythrax Draconis]

So on that point, out of curiosity how do you guys weigh your fluff?

Well, in fact I LOVE the 40k fluff. and I really meant it in CAPS. I'm an old RPG player, and never saw a world as cool, complex and interesting as 40K in any RPG or sci-fi literature (well, Dune is the Holy Grail for me, but it's another case, I can elaborate later if anyone is interested) and "just" for a wargame.

 

In my opinion and RPG needs a solid, complex and interesting world than a wargame in a 100 to 1 proportion :angry:

 

But I'm too old to argue about little stuff, so I really don't care the rules really fit the fluff or vice versa, or if the fluff changes or not. It's already an overkill of setting for a wargame, and I love how 40K is "suspended in time" compare to the RPG worlds:

 

- The Emperor can die on any instant, but never dies;

- Eldar are on the verge of extinction, but never disappear;

- The Imperium is crumbling down from inside, but there's no new age of strife;

- The Tyranids will eventually devour all the galaxy, but it never happens;

- The Necrons will awake and take the galaxy again, but it never happens...

 

and the list goes on.

 

Why? Cause that way you have a permanent tension: an excuse for perpetual war with ANY army against ANY army, which is perfect for a wargame.

 

Well, and since I love the 40K novels too (just read some of them) I like to talk about them and speculate. Just because despite the unsolvable plot holes (which GW made on purpose for several reasons) some can really be discovered by connecting the dots, even if GW never connect it themselves.

[Prathios]

I'd tell you how much I love the fluff but that would be overkill at this point I think. Almost finished with Mechanicus, after that i got 3 more lined up heading towards sixty BL novels :angry:

[Verythrax Draconis]

I'd tell you how much I love the fluff but that would be overkill at this point I think. Almost finished with Mechanicus, after that i got 3 more lined up heading towards sixty BL novels :angry:

 

I'm having a very had time cycling through the Space Wolf/Horus Rising/Ciaphas Cain/Eisenhorn/Grey Knights series right now ;)

 

PS: Soul drinkers Omnibus is at mail right now... I hate when I do this...

[Prathios]

I'm having a very had time cycling through the Space Wolf/Horus Rising/Ciaphas Cain/Eisenhorn/Grey Knights series right now :angry:

 

PS: Soul drinkers Omnibus is at mail right now... I hate when I do this...

 

I give the SW series as a whole 4.5 stars out of 5 (one of the lee lightner books was a little shabby the rest were excellent), HH 5 of 5, Ciaphas Cain 5 of 5, Eisenhorn 5 of 5, and the GK books as a series... 4.0 (I can't rate anything that was able to hold my attention that well very low and they were very entertaining, which is the point no?)

 

So you got yourself a really good list there. Careful with the HH books though they can own you and make you crave more.

 

Oh and I havn't read the soul drinkers stuff, heard bad things though...